This bugged me for a long time and no relief
in sight. I just tore through my books looking
for a picture to use as reference.
One of the best known western artists painted
a picture portraying all the MM in a long line
coming into rendezvous. The Grand Parade or something like that. Almost all look like their
wearing shorts. The artwork was less photographic than impressionistic (blurred).
Did they wear shorts or knee length pants?
Oracle

Oracle,

I am guessing the artist you may be talking about is Alfred Jacob Miller? He is the only artist that ever was present at any original rendezvous, that was in 1837 with the American Fur Company (AMFco) caravan. He did several paintings and field skectches of them enroute. Some of his field work was done in water colors and were small. I am not in front of my book collection right now to help point out some of these works that you might be talking about. But I will follow up, I am a big fan of his work and try to see as many of them I can find. I do know one field skecth which is in pen that shows them picketing their stock and you can see very clear that they have knee breeches on and are not wearing any leg or foot covering at the time. Why not? I do the same in camp at times. Miller has done a painting or two of this scene and they now are covered. I also have seen up close the painting in oil that was done for Stewart for his castle of "Antoine Watering Stewart's Horse" and clearly can see him wearing leggins about thigh high.

So I say knee breeches yes not shorts, we don't want to get that fad going now do we?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: bufflerub1880,

Breeches are knee length and are period correct. There's an AJ Miller painting called 'picketing the horses' that shows two men who are apparently wearing breeches with no stockings and are barefoot. That's my interpretation of it, anyway from looking at a reprinted original field sketch.

Sean

Well here I go again....

This is the oil "Antoine Watering Stewart's Horse" it is in Laramie WY. It is a very large pianting with much detail...

[IMG:left] [/IMG]

Oracle,
I'm just adding my shovel-full to the pile, here, but I was under the impression that knee-breeches were well out-of-style by what we call the Mountain Man era. Paintings even by artists who actually witnessed anything were often stylized to fit mood, fashion, romantic ideas, etc. I have also had the impression that mountain men often cut off the lower part of their buckskin pants or leggings since they got ruined while setting and collecting beaver traps in the water anyway; they then sometimes replaced the cut-off part with blanketing for warmth. You may be seeing that kind of "cut-offs".

Dick

quote:

I was under the impression that knee-breeches were well out-of-style by what we call the Mountain Man era.

Dick,
While they definitely weren't the height of fashion, breeches or short clothes were still definitely present during the period and there are several sources for that. See Chronister and Landry's article in BOB VII and the MFTQ back issues. William Marshall Anderson noted wearing a pair of filthy, greasy, leather breeches in 1833-34. Breeches appear to have hung on a bit longer in the SW. I've seen a painting of a Navajo from the 1850's wearing short clothes and stockings. There's a pair of SW style breeches with side button legs with a Navajo provenance dating to the 1870s.

Sean

Well, I can see how breeches would be great for wading out after your trap sets.

Dick

Wal, mebbe y'al can git some o' them Mountainmanshorts from one o' them Sutlers as makes them beaded buckskin haltertops some o' the gals is seen t' be wearin' of warm occasions!

Let's talk a bit on the picture. What do you see? On Antoine, the capote is white, maybe a faint stripe at the bottom- hard to tell. No buttons, the collar is like a shirt, not the wide type collar commonly seen today or in paintings of Canadians. No hood. The sleeve is fitted into the body of the garment, it is not the square type of sleeve used on a "box" type shirt that Bingham shows in his paintings. There doesn't appear to be a skirt around the bottom of the capote. So, I would say there is a back piece to the capote and two front pieces , two tapered sleeves, and a sewn on collar. The front pieces overlap maybe four inches and a belt alone is used to keep all closed. In cold weather the collar can be closed and held with a handkerchief. At least that's how it looks to me. The weight of the blanket material, seems pretty light, the trade lists had some white blankets that were only 1 point or 1 1/2 points.
Saddle, looks like thin steel stirrups, not big wood blocks. No pommel, buffalo robe over the saddle. And..it's supposed to be Stewart's horse. Anyone see anything else.
Gray capotes: PC? Never seen gray blankets or capotes on any trade list.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RedOwl,

To me, it looks as if Antoine is wearing a buckskin "hunting frock." Otherwise, you make some good points about the tailoring, etc. The steel stirrups have been typical of English saddles for centuries and a very similar stirrup is still used on English saddles today.

I'm with Tuscarora and lean toward a buckskin frock, as well. He also appears to be wearing leggings sans breeches or pantaloons. Hadn't seen that painting. Thanks, Buffler.

Sean

I didn't think about buck skin because there is no fringe but come to think of it, most of the Antoine images have him in buck skin.
Now, what is a "frock" I thought they had to have a cape over the shoulders? What's the difference because a capote and a frock? Thanks.

Red Owl,
We use the term "frock" in a variety of ways. Probably what they mean here is simple wrap-around or pullover shirt or outer shirt or jacket, usually made of coarse linen or homespun, sometimes of wool. There were dressier frocks or "frock coats" worn by bourgeoise and city guys, that were actually tailored and of nicer material, but on the frontier it was a working-man's garment worn to protect what was underneath or worn instead of nicer clothes.

Dick

I think the Black Beaver painting shows a frock with a cape, or at least that's what I thought distinguished a frock. On the inventory lists I think I saw a listing of maybe 5 frock coats, were they very common?

When I lived in Oregon Many many years ago, I set chokes for a logging CO. and we cut the lower part of our pants off. they got in the way of moving about once they got wet. maybe the M M learned to do the same thing, therefore the short pants.

P.

I know what you are talking about. Years ago a lot of guys working in the bush cut their pants to stop about mid calf as the bottoms would get wet or caked with mud. Your pants stopped at about the top of your boots.
Now if hobnails would only come back, great fun on wood floors. Also explains why savate got going. Where's my axe? Waugh.
In any event, britches that stopped below the knees would come pretty close to all this, maybe more popular with the mountain men than we currently think.

quote:

I think the Black Beaver painting shows a frock with a cape, or at least that's what I thought distinguished a frock. On the inventory lists I think I saw a listing of maybe 5 frock coats, were they very common?

According to the Jas. Townsend site, hunting frocks were worn from the eighteenth century up to and including the Mex/Am war by both frontiersmen and some soldiers. I Got one from him awhile back and like it a lot. Quality work, very well made. And you're right, they have a cape.

http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_17&products_id=484

HMMMM. I enter a request for info on short pants on mountain men and too soon the subject switched to frock coats. The art piece shows
old Antoine wearing a frock, his pants are
blurred to style, probably leather pants.
Can anyone add to my original question?

Oracle: I think I know what painting you are talking about. It is on p 80 of the Time-Life West Series, "The Trail Blazers". The man in the front, riding on a horse, has a whip or quirt in his hand and his pants stop right at the knees and he is bare- legged below that, no moccasins. Behind him is a man with thigh length leggings and a band above the knees. I tried to find the image on the net so I could post it but had no luck.
My guess, probably knee length britches that just got pulled up to knee length, either that or pantaloons cut to that length, to be wore with thigh length leggings.
This time, in searching the net, I found a lot of color images of the Miller work. Quite a few have men with blue legs, either thigh length blue stroud leggings or blue-gray pantaloons.

I'm new here, but found several fascinating topics kicking around. I thought i might stick in my 2 cents. Thanks to RedOwl i found the Miller painting in question also. First thing i would like to say; whether you like him or not...you MUST take AJ Miller with a grain of salt. It is disappointing that the main graphic reference we have to fur trade era clothing is Miller. He is not at all concerned with portryaing his subjects accuratly. He is no ethnographer. His main goals were to keep his romantically inclined patron, Stewart, happy. But, after taking that grain we can try to pull out some non-romantic details. Other than fringe and beads and those woolen-wolf eared hats which EVERYONE wears in Millers paintings, much can be gleaned from his paintings. I don't know much about the painting in question..is wish i knew its name. It is related to a painting called "Caravan in Route", which Boatman's National Bank, in St. Louis has. "Caravan in Route" is a Oil painting and i would guess our (in Trailblazers)painting antedates it. Typically Millers, sketches seem to be more accurate, his watercolors next, and his oils, mostly romanticized. Whatever, the fellow in question does not seem to appear in 'Caravan.' To me this fellow seems to be a Native American. ?? He is holding something in his right hand that appears to be decorated in feathers, and he has on no hat, shoes, and does appear to be bare legged. There are other indians in the picture, and this fellow is cavorting around the caravan like an...ummm wild indian. Typical Miller. IF he wasn't an indian, it is possible that he is a short pant wearing trapper, i suppose. I really doubt if he is wearing breeches. I think most breehes would have been worn by upperclass traders..older men. Maybe spanish,(i'm not an expert on spanish influenced clothing) but i still seriously doubt it. Millers painting, "Our Camp," shows several other short legged pants--still between knee and ankle. Some sources mention the nature of indian tanned leather to seriously stretch then shrink when is gets wet. I've tried it a non-chemically tanned skin gets slimy, nasty, and bigger...when it dries, it gets hard and shrinks. I imagine that is the answer to the 'knickers' if you will..lol, that the gents in "Our Camp" wear. I'm also, fairly certain that many mountain men wore some variety of legging for just this reason.
Maybe off topic, but i'm going with leather hunting frock or shirt on "Antoine."