Whats a Greaser?

P.

Poordevil,

Greaser is a derogatory term for a Spaniard/Mexican, usually Mexican...

I'm really amazed to see that term used in a public forum.

Craig

I knew that.....and was wondering the same thing...this campfire is to good a place to dirty it up like this

Thank you kindly
P.

I was born 55 years ago in Texas, and mostly raised there. Many of my friends have names such as Hernandez,Lopez,De La Rosa. And I **** sure take offense at that kind of comment! And I think the only elephant he ever saw was in a zoo! Vaya Con Dios. Stumpy

Well I think that maybe the lines from an old movie don't make it ok to slam anybodies ethnic background.....think about it and maybe you will understand...O and the Squaw thing .....think about that too.......Miz Gabi minus the hugs

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Miz Gabi,

I know that back in the 18th and 19th century bigotry and intolerance were much more the norm than now, and derogatory labels for various ethnic groups were common. Hopefully FlintduShard was merely trying to write "in persona". Unfortunately, he came off sounding like a pompous and arrogant bigot.

I strongly agree that this campfire is not the place to foul with this kind of thought or language. Offensive statements like this have no place here. Save it for your historical reenactments, if you really really need to. (At which point PC means Period Correct, not Politically Correct).

Larry, you bring up a good point; he may indeed be speaking 'in character'; I've been known to do that, at times, myself. One thing troubled me when I began to do so, though: the fact that the mountain men we read of in journals, in Ruxton's and Gerard's accounts, and in the history books were anything but "politically correct" in their language, their warfare, or their games. They had derogatory names for themselves, for each other, for the indians they often fought and more often copied--in fact, they used the infamous "n" word, preceded by "white" or "red" as the case dictated, and they used it as a self-deprecating joke. The only group I've never read of them putting down thus were the actual negro or mulatto mountain men, whom they seemed to accept as unquestioned equals. They used terms like "greaser" as a matter of casual habit, like the inconsiderate unwashed scoundrels they were, while their very lives were an argument for the worth of the individual.
I made a conscious decision when I started these postings to try to avoid using those terms, even though I knew avoiding them would in itself detract from the authenticity of the language, just as I try to avoid them in regular conversation. I get pretty violently argumentative, however,when anyone suggests that works like Huckleberry Finn or To Kill a Mockingbird should be censored or their language castrated by the "pc" nazis that seem to rule school boards, political parties and the like.
It's hard to avoid certain misunderstandings; I recall trying to classify a particular blade as a "squaw knife" to a Montanan who took offense a few years back--all I was trying to do was distinguish it from a warrior's or hunter's style of blade. I suppose a particular piscatorial pest will soon be identified in our fishing regs as something other than a "squawfish", to "pc" the stupid things. It takes a Philadelphia lawyer to get through them, anyway...any of you Pennsylvanians object?
mind yer topknots! windy

Windy, you're absolutely correct. On your choice on not using certain terms, and in regard to literature.

Like Stumpy, I grew up, and lived most of my life in Texas and know many fine Tejanos. And I think that is why it bothered me quite a bit.

I would never classify myself as politically correct... But neither would I use such a term even in an attempt to use the language of the time.

Craig

Thanks to Craig Schmidt! That is how I feel about it. No matter how they talked back then, we should not try to emulate that type of language OR attitude. At least, that's my "dos centavos"! And kudos to Poordevil and Windy. And Hugs to Miz Gabi! Vaya Con Dios. Stumpy

quote:

Originally posted by coonmedicinetrapper:
felt hats seem to blow bad when windy any way to make it so the stay on your head better? besides a tie on, i was watching jeremiah johnson and he had a small hole at the top of the hat at the crease, will this work, any info would be cool

"Movie Lore" is so pervasive that we often take it as gospel. Strive to avoid taking anything in any "mo'om pitcher" at face value. It is difficult, I know but there you have it.

What makes it especially difficult are the few times when the "mo'om pitchers" get it right.

Three Hawks

Windy,
Its already happened. I believe what we used to, in 'our disgustingly crude days' called a squawfish is now a pikeminnow. "The American Fisheries Society officially changed the name northern squawfish to pikeminnow."
Sparks

Oh man not the squaw thing.

A lot of people like to get involved in telling other people what is offensive to groups none of them belong to.

99% of the things white PC people say are derogatory are derogatory, but maybe whites need to pay attention when Native Americans start talking about reclaiming the term squaw? And as for the assertion of a certain talk show celebrity host, WRONG! Squaw is not from the Iroquoisan, it is from the Algonquian Language Group. Context IS important.

Lucas "too white to be Native American, too Native American to be white" Roy, who BTW is often mistaken for Hispanic.

Oh, and BTW, isn't "squaw knife" a modern term and concept?

Now, back to felt hats. LOL!!!!

Pichou,
Would you email me offline at your convenience? If your family name is Roy, we may even be distantly related--but really, my mom has a Roy in her family background and understood it to be French, and I'd like to know something about the name ("King"?) and family.

Thanks,

Dick Weaver
dick13cathy@mindspring.com

Well besides the racial issues there is the other simple fact, I have never heard that term in any of the period literature, it is not period correct.

quote:

Originally posted by RedOwl:
Well besides the racial issues there is the other simple fact, I have never heard that term in any of the period literature, it is not period correct.

oh yes it is - 1849 G. F. RUXTON Life in the Far West "The Greasers payed for Bent's scalp, they tell me"

CB I think we've moved on to "squaw knife" now.

Good call on the quote.
BTW I think original material should NEVER be sanitized. That stuff goes in footnotes or the general introduction. Sometimes we recognize a term as offensive, but the meanings have changed.

Here's a good example... the current derogatory meaning did not come in to use until the Civil War or after, because of Minstrel Show makeup:

quote:

COON. A popular contraction of the word raccoon. A nickname applied to those who belong to the Whig party.

Dictionary of Americanisms, by John Russell Bartlett (1848)

Just to add a bit of fuel to the "dating of terms" fire;

In the early 1820's, George Simpson, newly appointed Governor of the HBC's Northern Department complained of his council that they were nearly "all Family Men" and too heavily influenced by the "Sapient Councils of their Squaws" (emphasis Simpsons)- "Fur Trade and Empire; George Simpsons Journal 1824-1825". Frederick Merk, ed. Cambridge, Mass. 11-12, 58.

It should be noted that the term squaw is derived from the Algonqiuan word for woman- e-quay. It is my understanding, from closely associated Elders, that the term did not always carry a negative connotation. Recently, one Elder, referring to the "name change" of an old haunt, lamented to me "the young people just don't understand".

It was recently asserted by a TV celebrity that the term was derogatory, referring to female genitalia. This, of course, is entirely false.

I don't think the term took on negative connotations until the mission boarding school era, when a squaw was associated with traditional culture and the Native American equivalent of a common law wife. Both of these things were against the wishes of the missionaries and the Government.

Next came the movie/TV era, where a squaw was the dumb grudge-property of the treacherous savage warrior/buck.

So it is easy to see why the term is under attack. However, some tribal councils and elders are trying to rescue the term in its original sense, and of course in the original language and spelling.

Pichou- Generally agree with your above post, especially in regards to profoundly ill-informed media types.

The negative application of the term might date a bit earlier than the boarding school period. A study of Van Kirk's work would suggest that the post NWC/HBC merger period saw an increase in the Euro-female presence in the old Northwest. The desire of these women to maintain their perceived "superiority" and their jealousy in regards to the influence that the local women wielded led to some pretty nasty "cat fights", though not on a physical level(the "fainting couch" Euro-women wouldn't have stood a chance!)
It would appear that it was during this period that the negative application of the term might have arisen.

By the way- did someone mention a felt hat?