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Cabelas Blue Ridge rifle help from Loyalist Dave?
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Greenhorn
posted
Loyalist Dave,There was a thread a while back about redoing the ramrod pipes on the Blue ridge rifle.Could you tell me exactly how you did it?If you still use the screw and washer system to secure stock to barrel you must have to move the new thimbels to one side of the barrel screw?You are right the factory pipes are so ugly.I thought even if I cut the factory ones shorter they would look much better.What kind of pipes did you install? I want to put a nose cap on too.Thanks for the help.
 
Posts: 38 | Registered: 21 July 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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In my opinion, the ramrod pipes ae of the least offensive. Granted, they're not pinned but so what. The fact that it doesn't have a nose cap is also of no importance. I have two other flintlocks that are lacking a nose cap. One is a Southern Mountain flint longrifle and the second, a Northwest trade gun.

Mine was one of the older models and lacked a toe plate. I hunt with mine and being dragged through the brush, over downed logs, and so on, it needed a toe plate. The lock screw lacking an escushion to keep it from forever biting deeper into the stock and allowing the screw to go deeper through the lock also had to be changed. The rifle now has an escushion for that screw.

The bigest and most daming iten on this rifle was the half inch long 0.19" diameter flue that ran from the breech back to the vent. That had to be bored out to 5/8" or 0.31 caliber. The rifle exibited inconsistent ignition untill after that operation.

Since I use my Blue Ridge exclusively for hunting, I had a peep sight built and mounted on it's breech block.

One last item I'm contempating is to add an extension to the finger portion of the trigger guard. The factory shape leaves my little finger flapping in the wind or tuckind in that tight little circle. If and when it gets into that tight circle, it darn near gets ripped off when the rifle is fired. In other workds, my hands and fingers just don't fit the factory finger area of the trigger guard.

This next change took a lot of contemplation before I actually did it. The factory lock is quite capable of firing the rifle but there were a multitude of little things I didn't like about it. The frizzen didn't jump forward lightly. There was a little screw in the forward end of the lock that in my opinion was going to become loose way to soon. In any envent, I purchased an L & R drop in lock and had it browned and installed. I believe the new lock is so much better than the original Pedersoli lock.

For what its worth, I sold the Pedersoli lock on EBay for $127.

In my opion, changing the ramrod pipes would be purely cometic. The changes I made were done to make the rifle funtion better; either to protect it from wear during use or to actually make it perform better.

Load fast and aim slow.
 
Posts: 1726 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 08 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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I had a similar Americam made rifle that had a flute that looked like an extra rr chanel along both sides of the barrel that was quite unsightly to me, does the Blue ridge have this detail? I removed as much of it as I could on my gun, I thought the write up in the cataloge was amusing as it stated that this gun in flintlock was good from the F&I war thru the Alamo, I do not know who was in charge of product research but they should be put back to stocking shelves.My gun had a Douglas barrel and was a good shoter, I just could not get past the forestock detail even after the modification I made, I just looked the other way when considering the thimbles, as once you start to make improvements where do you stop? I know a guy who worked one down and got it to where it looked like it could have been from the 1790's but he reworked the buttsock,forestock and a lot of smaller details, lots of work.
 
Posts: 272 | Registered: 12 June 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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trg1 and White Finger,bought this rifle for my boy for Rondy and beat around hunting rifle.Got it new with a few dings from Cabelas for a price I couldn't turn down.It is a .54 percussion so I think it should have pretty reliable ignition.The barrel on the newer ones have a 1:65 twist and that is what I wanted for roundballs.White Finger I have read your articles on these rifles in Muzzleloader and they were a great help understanding the ignition problems with these rifles.I'M not going to mess with the fire chamber on this one,but I may put one of your peeps If I use this rifle for hunting.My rifle has the Toe plate,but I would like to put a plate on for the lock bolt.

trg1,yes this rifle has the big flutes that run along the ramrod,that could be trimmed down.Not trying to make it into a Penn. Longrifle I have a few of those all ready.Just looking for a winter project to make it look a little more eye pleasing.The ramrod pipes to me are to big compared to the slimness of the rest of the rifle.Thank you and White Finger for your help.
 
Posts: 38 | Registered: 21 July 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Prairieofthedog; You're lucky and got one of the newer rifles if it has the toe plate. It probably has the 1 in 56 twist too. Mine has the 1 in 48 so I feel lucky that I got it to shoot the 90 gr 2Fg load.

Trg1; Flue, as in channel or chimminy not flute as in groove. The flue is internal and therefore had to be bored to a larger diameter rather than external.

Load fast and aim slow.
 
Posts: 1726 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 08 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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You can call them what you wish, they looked like the flutes on some pistol cylinders to me, I was mainly asking if this gun had the ugerly things like mine did and from what gun school/time period they represent.I don't think I have seen any on orignals that I have had photos of, unless they are an exageration of the incise moulding seen on the forestocks of most rifles
 
Posts: 272 | Registered: 12 June 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Graybeard
Picture of MedicineSoldier
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Prairieofthedog,

I'm not Loyalisy Dave but I have replaced the ramrod pipes (as well as adding nosecaps) to a couple of the Blue Ridge rifles.

The first, a .50 cal. flintlock, I replaced the the screw type barrel attachment with underlugs fitted to the barrel dovetails and pinned in place. The replacement pipe lugs were modified to fit over the underlugs and pinned seperately.

The second, a .36 cal. flintlock, I did a bit differently. Using the stock underlugs I slotted them so that the ramrod pipe lugs would fit within the slot. I then used a single pin to hold both the barrel and the ramrod pipe.

I did some reshaping fo the forestocks as well (mostly thinned the along the barrels) and as I said added nosecaps. A long one on the 50, a shorter on the 36.

I still have a .50 cal. percussion carbine (discontinued) that I will probably also change/reshape/lighten in the future for use during muzzleloading education for ladies and kids.

Medicine Soldier
 
Posts: 219 | Location: Black Hills of SD | Registered: 05 October 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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Medicine Soldier,Thanks for the info.In your opinion out of the 2 ways you attached the ramrod pipes what is the best way?Both sound like they would be fairly easy and a good way to do it.Thanks again.
 
Posts: 38 | Registered: 21 July 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Graybeard
Picture of MedicineSoldier
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Prairieofthedog,

Your certainly welcome. Essentially the ramrod pipe attachments were the same, that is replacing them with lugged pipes and pinning in place. I used the following

on the 36

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/...partNum=RP-RH-RE-6-B

on the 50

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/...=743&partNum=RP-TC-R

Even though the ramrods for the two calibers are different diameters the pipes needed to be for 3/8" ramrods due to the ramrod channels being the same size. I have enough crookedness (????) in my 5/16 ramrod so no significant problem with it slipping in the 36.......so far.

The big difference is what was used for the barrel attachment and the need to modify the barrel lugs or the pipes.

Replacing the barrel lugs was pretty easy.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/...=712&partNum=UL-TC-1

Just fitting them to the dovetails and filing to the right height. The pipes were modified by cutting the pipe lugs on one end so as to allow the pipe to sit over the barrels lugs and fitted to the stock.

The main reason I used the original lugs on the 2nd rifle was that although I had planned on making the modifications for a while I decided to start it out of the blue one day in the shop. I had the lugs from that rifle as well as the 1st rifle in the parts pile and decided to give it a try. Figured with a total of four to make two I could even screw one or two up. Slots were cut in lugs wide enough for the ramrod pipe lugs to fit and the sides were filed flat to help when they were drilled. The advantage here is that you can get by with only one pin. See attachment.

That being said, when I modify the percussion I think I may replace the barrel lugs again (a lot depends on if I have the replacement lugs in the parts pile when I decide to do it) but I may look at modifying the pipe lugs by cutting the center so the pipe sits center over the barrel lugs and double pinning the pipe with brass for looks with a steel pin for the barrels. I'm a glutton for punishment with the luck I sometimes have drilling for pins.

Medicine Soldier

modified underlug
 
Posts: 219 | Location: Black Hills of SD | Registered: 05 October 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Well, the problem is twofold.

First, the pipes on the Blue Ridge hold the barrel in place.

Second, the stock is shaped like this /\ so there is an odd angle to be trying a proper, traditional pinning of the ramrod pipes.

I ordered three ramrod pipes from Track of the Wolf that my ramrod would fit. I ordered brass ones.

When they arrived, I began by removed the Pedersoli pipes with the holes..., and I cut them down from either end, and then cut them in half, lengthwise..., so I ended up with squares of brass, which fit over the screws to the barrel, and acted as washers. I didn't use actual washers as the tubes with the rifle when cut, fit the contours of the ramrod channel, and couldn't be seen from the outside.

Then I cheated. Yep, I fudged my assembly to work without fear, and not take a "stab" at using pins. I have since acquired a "jig" that clamps to the barrel when in the stock and helps you to "aim" the drill bit, but when I did this modification, I hadn't even heard of such a tool, so I cheated.

I bought ramrod tubes made to be pinned, three regular... no "entry" tube..., and made holes in the ramrod channel to accept the brass portion that should be pinned..., then I glued the suckers in place using Brownell's bedding compound. Eeker I used bedding compound as it's designed for gun and all weather applications. I used just a little bit on the brass that actually went into the wood.

That's how I did it. Mea culpa, they should be pinned and with a jig, or using Gimlets you have a good chance at doing right the first time.., but heck it was 15 years ago, and I know better now. I also lopped off the "ears" on the rear sight, and filed it into a plain square, and replaced the front sight post with a thin, silver front sight, also from Track. Really made a difference in accuracy too.

You have to be careful with gimlets, but they do work...
Garret Wade French Gimlet Set

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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Loyalist Dave,Where can I get a "pin drilling jig"? I see a couple of guys over on the American Longrifle forum make a batch once in a while but they go fast.Anyplace else sell them?I am going to spruce this gun up for a winter project.Thanks for the info.
 
Posts: 38 | Registered: 21 July 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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I got mine from Mountain State Muzzleloading, which now called Mountain State Manufacturing (MSM, Inc.) stock number #04018. I don't know if they still offer them but I think they do.

MSM inc.

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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WOW . Maybe its just the weather out side but you fellas have me so darn confused . But I think I have the jest of what your doing …
Here is what I do when it comes to the RR pipes .
Let me say that first I don’t like the way the barrel is attached or the RR pipes .
So what I do is replace everything with pins . IE barrel and stock .
But one of the problems is that the design requires you to pin the barrel lugs and pipes in the same location or fill the existing barrel dovetails and relocate them . that’s not an issue . but some folks don’t like there to be new dovetails cut .
So what I do is pin everything .
To do that I knock out the screw type underlugs that are on the barrel and replace those with pinned type lugs . If you file the tab of the lug down , you only need to extend a small grove in the existing location for the factory type lug ..
This allows you to pin the barrel to the stock .

Now when it comes to the pipes . I in a couple cases have use the existing factory pipe .
But in most cases I make my own replacements
Call your local hardware store or hobby supply and ask if they have a K&S display . In that display they should have different gages of sheet brass.
1/16 sheet will make you a pipe with a 5/16th ID and very close to a 3/8 OD

When using the existing pipe I use the thinner 1/32 . I cut a section that’s the length of the original pipe and ¾ wide .
I then fold this in half length wise .
Now I measure the web between the barrel and the RR channel and mark that on the brass.
Now I set the piece so that the fold is down in my vice and to the depth of the mark .
I then open the tab just enough that I can use a 3/8 drill bit and lightly tap it down .
What I just did was make a tab that I can silver solder to the original pipe
The outer hole I cover with a decorative jewelry facet .

I then Notch the tab out for the barrel under lug .
Now when drilling for the pins you get 3 pin holes per location .
As Dave stated . Because the stock is already shaped , you need a drill alignment jig .
This is very simple to make for the hobbyist. All it takes is a nail put through a pine board . Place the board on your drill press table so that the nail points up . Move it so that the tip of the nail aligns with the very center of the tip of you drill and clamp the board into position . Now double check your alignment by bring the press down . The drill should once again touch the very tip of the nail .

Now go back to your stock and using a hand drill with a smaller bit then your pin , just slightly start a hole . don’t worry that its not lined up to go through the stock . All your doing is making a small shelf for your TRUE bit to start on . If you don’t do this the bit will slide and your hole will not end up going strait through your stock .

With the barrel and pipes removed , take the stock to the press . Put your bit as deep into the chuck as you can . The less it sticks out of the chuck the better. But you need at least ¼ of an inch out of the chuck . Place your stock on the nail , in the location you want the drill to come out . Start you hole . Then move to the next hole . Once all the hole are started re set you drill bit so that it has the length to go clear through the stock .
Again double check your alignment jig to ensure the bit touches the tip of the nail
Now again start with your first hole. Drill slow and don’t force the bit . Go alittle then raise the bit to clean the wood chips .
Repeat for each hole you need .
Now come back and set your barrel to the stock and make sure it tight to the barrel channel . Now once again set the drill to the hole tell it comes in contact with the under lug . All you want to do is mark the lugs .
Now remove the barrel and drill out the lug where marked .

Pin the barrel to the stock .
Now fit your pipes by inletting for the tab . By doing this with the barrel installed , you reduce the chances of chipping out as you enter the barrel channel .
Once you have the pipes fit . Again use the drill to mark the locations on the tabs of the pipes . Remove them and drill the holes ..

anyway , thats how i do it
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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TG

When it comes to the molding along the RR pipe , there are a number of examples
Of this type of period decorative molding being done.
Where the problems comes to my mind is when that molding is doubled up like on the old Hatfield rifles . I would agree that when that’s done , it rather does look like fluting.
Back in the early 80’s I bought a LOT # of replacement stocks for that rifle . I think I still have 2 of them out in my shop . As I recall one has the double molding and one the correct single molding.
IMO what makes these look goofy is not the molding “unless it’s a double “ but that the manufacture does not do the correct incise carving along the upper edge . So what happens is again , it looks like a flute vs. the proper carving of the forearm
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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What time period/place was this type of molding used cap'? and was it as wide/deep as the stuff on the Hatfields and similar guns? it almost looks like then used a router to cut the rr channel and just did a couple more while at it
 
Posts: 272 | Registered: 12 June 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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well , very early TG . Many of the rifles I have seen that carry the deeper carving , also carry more Germanic influences
Currently I have an order to build a copy of a Buan rifle .
if you have a copy of Shumways; Rifles of colonial America.
If you look to volume II NO.86 is a rifle by J. Baun . You will see the rifle which is actually a smooth bore of 43 cal . Its suggested to have been made the 3rd¼ of the 18th century .
If you look closely you will see the relief along the RR channel .
Now here is a trick I learned long ago concerning these photos . Your eye will not pick up the detail that the photo actually carries . But if you look at the photo under magnification you can see a lot more .
With this piece if you do that , you will see that the forestock caving is indeed very deep .
At first it looks like a double flute . But if you look at page 384 at the photo of the entry pipe / thimble , you will see that this is actually a incise relief along the upper edge of the of the fluting.
The other thing that this same photo does is confirm that the carving is rather deep .
Also if you look in Volume one , you can find others #10 I also carries the relief .

But here is were we have to be careful .
While this relief can be found early , it also seems to change . By chang I mean it still exists but rather shallow . Its also combined with the shape coming around from the barrel and tapering into a incise line just above the relief . So what you get is the effect of the relief being raised . so if viewed from the muzzle you get something like this .
Please excuse my poor art work LOL



In still other cases that upper work is left off and thus you get a shallow flute .

The thing we also have to keep in mind is that rifles like the blue ridge are not copies of any real given rifle . They are simply production guns that loosely resemble in some cases originals . If we look at say some of the examples of Lehigh rifles we can see the basic lines used in the blue ridge. But we have to look past the shorter barrels .the later styled butt plates and simply a fat gun which is often the case with factory production rifles .
But again the comb shape, drop , wrist , all resemble the Lehigh.
in fact if we were to lenthen the barrel to the correct leanght . use the proper sized barrel and profile . replace the late concave buttplate and do some proper shaping and carving . one could end up with what we would associate with a Lehigh.
at least to the level that many manufactures would call the rifle . but you and i have discussed that topic before , have we not .

also alot of times i read folks who give an opinion that these blue ridge/ Hatfield’s resemble a Verner.
Myself I don’t think so . . The Verner rifles carry a different comb even though the toe to trigger lines maybe close .
Here is a couple photos . The first is a shot of one of the replacement stocks I at one time was buying for the Hatfield rifles.. Notice that if I were to add the incise line above the fluting and finish the shaping , the result would be much like my drawing

In the 2nd photo you will see the replacement stock placed above a partially shaped Verner stock which is above a walnut stocked Haines that I been working on .



so we both could set here and agree i think that the fluting found on the blueridge is not correct for that rifle .
but then again if the rifle isnt to be a historic copy of a given exsample , people will naturaly do what ever work they like . after all its their gun .
IMO thats probably what pedersoli did . when the gun was designed they put on the heavy forestock relief . the simply were not to concerned with what was correct or not .

This message has been edited. Last edited by: captchee,
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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Captchee,Thanks for all the time you took to give me the excellent information.I agree with you that the rifle somewhat resembles the Lehigh-Allentown schools.There was a circa 1825 Allentown rifle shown on the ALR a while back,but they took the pictures off the website.That is the look I want get closest to.The moldings along my ramrod look like the ones of your Hatfield stock.If I want my gun to resemble a Lehigh should I shave these down or leave them alone.Did Lehigh's have this detail sometimes?These lips exstend down from the ramrod channel almost 3/16" of a inch.I would like to trim them down to almost nothing to slim the fore end.I know I won't have Lehigh when done just want to get it a little closer,being I'm re-working it.Thanks again.
 
Posts: 38 | Registered: 21 July 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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I have only handle a couple of rifles that IMO would fall into a Lehigh style . so I don’t think im qualified to say what they did or didn’t have .
But I can tell you that neither of those rifles carried fluting.
What they did have was a quick taper to the RR channel and an incise line running from the entry to the end of the channel .
Shumway also doesn’t show such fluting in the Lehighs he documents .
That being said like all things , as soon as someone says NO , then there will pop up a photo showing that the answer may not be as clear .

you might want to look at this rifle . Save the photos while you can as they come and go quickly.
see this one does apear to have the deep fluiting along the RR channel
Lehigh Valley

As to trimming down the RR channel so as to slim the forestock down.
This IMO doesn’t work and here is why .
See often times folks try and do this . It looks good right up until the RR is in place . Then guess what happens , the stock looks fat again .
Why ?
Well because the reality of it is you have not slimmed things when viewed from the side at all . While at first the illusion is that it was slimed , the barrel is still in the same location and the RR is still in the same location . So while the stock may be slimmed , its still going to look thick from the side .
When a rifle is made correctly , I it will be slim . The way this is done is by cutting the RR channel close to the barrel channel .
While this may not seem like much , what it does is magnify the slimness because it reduces the thickness from the top of the barrel to the belly and forestock of the rifle , all the way from the wrist to the nose cap .
if you again look at the muzzle shot of the hatfield stock i posted . not the thickness of the web between the RR channel and the barrel channel . that actualy should be about 1/2 as thick .
but there is nothing one can do about that. once its done , it is what it is .

Now don’t get me wrong , IMO doing what your doing will make the rifle look better . Its just not going to end up being as slim as you think

This message has been edited. Last edited by: captchee,
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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Captchee,
Googled pictures of Lehigh Rifles and found Allen Martin's website, who is possibly the best Lehigh builder in America. On the first page of his link one of the rifles appears to have the fluting we are talking about. See link below.

http://www.flaminharry.com/allenmartin.html

Take a look if you get time,interesting. Good point about trimming down the fluting but I think it will look better slimmed down. Thanks again,
prairie of the dog
 
Posts: 38 | Registered: 21 July 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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yep there you go .
but understand , that’s just an example of someone who does a Lehigh with that type of forestock carving.
that’s ok , nothing wrong with that IMO if that’s all the information you need or care about .
But if you want to find the true answer to your question , then I would suggest contacting this person and asking if he has documentation showing originals carrying this this type of fluting or better yet if he could tell you what rifle he based that rifle off of .
Ill bet he does .

Then you also have the information and the next time such a subject comes up you can speak from experience based from your own information , not what someone else has said or done .
See that’s the base of the discussion that TG and I have been having on and off now for some time that we just cant seem to get across to others .
See if you don’t take that next step then basicly all your doing is justifying what your wanting by what someone else does . You don’t know if what they did was to take artistic liberties or not .
over time things get accepted when infact they may have no base .

The only way to be sure is to find the documented original . Then you can clearly point to it an say , here , here is why I chose to do what I did
Again don’t get me wrong . If you chose not to go that far . Nothing wrong with saying ; I did this because I wanted to . Because I like it .
LMAO I do that a lot on my guns . im not afraid to step on toes and say ; I did it because I like it and im the one building the gun OR I did this because that’s the way the customer requested it .

But at the same time , I can tell you with all honesty . It sure is nice to be able to say ; AHHHH hold on now , what about this example .
Then throw a new card down on the table.

so get ahold of Allen Martin and talk with him about his rifles . trust me , you will be much better for it
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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