Any you fellers have any contact with EARY RUSTIC ARMS

LARRY @ tERRY WILLIAMS; PROPRIETORS.
CAMDENTON, MO 06020

I orederd a Cumberland Boat gun from them over a year ago and have heard nothing. I paid $850.00 up
front. I can't raise them by normal means.
I feel a little peevish about now.
Oracle

Why would you ever pay up front? Small shops have had a spotty record of keeping up no matter who it is. Several have "gone under". I have paid half up front or material costs up front, but it sounds as though you paid it all up front? No guarantees in this kind of deal.

You now have a collection/ legal problem on your hands. If you have a physical address, send a registered letter. Contact any and all regulatory agencies you can locate. Attorney General, etc. Use directory assistance to try to find a home phone. A year is way to long. It is time for you to get tough.

I just tried going to their web site and as you probably know it is not working. I remember reading that Larry was in the process of turning the building of guns over to Terry and moving the shop to Arkansas or Missouri.(Payments were to still go to Larry) I really hope this all works out for you in the end. Rockerhound

I was hoping for more support from the campfire.
Actally I made four payments. The gunn was due in april and I made final shippind payment in Dec.
Okay I was flim-flamed.
Please, someone in Missouri look for Larry and Terry Willams of Camdeton,MO OR a County District Attournies Office.

I acted in good faith and at least should get
some jusstice.

Oracle

I sent some search tips to you at your @netzero.net account.

Sparks

quote:

Originally posted by Oracle:
I was hoping for more support from the campfire.
Actally I made four payments. The gunn was due in april and I made final shippind payment in Dec.
Okay I was flim-flamed.
Please, someone in Missouri look for Larry and Terry Willams of Camdeton,MO OR a County District Attournies Office.

I acted in good faith and at least should get
some jusstice.

Oracle

We had discussed this type of problem at length in the past, notably when Narragansett Arms folded and several folks had their money out and no gun. I had about $500 at risk myself in that deal, but eventually I got my gun and paid that other half off. Some folks lost patience and took legal action. I think the owner tried over time to make good. You have to understand that these small shops are not KMart or Cabelas, if stuff happens, they just can't plug in another builder and keep up. You are always at risk whenever you send money up front to any such small business no matter what or who it is. You cannot get blood from a turnip as my ol' grandma used to say. You can sue WalMart, but what do you get from suing a one-man poor shop? Hopefully you can work it out once you establish contact, if not then maybe legal means will work. Most of the time these folks are honest but caught up in a situation they have lost control of and sometimes they make bad decisions, such as cutting communication [like Narragansett did]. I managed to keep up a civil dialogue with Terry at Narrangansett and believe that is why I eventially got my gun from him. A gun builder in jail cannot build guns and if he is broke he can't repay. So, to me legal action is little more than revenge. I try to avoid that, but each to his own. I once had to wait over 5 years for a custom knife promised me in a year. Nowadays I don't have that much time left to wait, so I no longer contract small shops with waiting periods, but rather buy stuff already made. I am sorry this happened to you, but maybe it will work out if you can get hold of one of the Williams.

P.S. these comments are not a slap at those who went after Narragansett with the law, just my old country approach to civil matters.

Have to disagre with Mike.
Legal action is just that...legal.
Back when, if someone went into debt they became the property of the creditor. Other solutions might be to call your cousin, Rocco from Chicago. Or, use the civilized system. BTW, the Attorney General is a state office. Start there. Mike is right, a small business can get behind very quickly. In the 1970's I started a silhouette target manufacturing business. Realizing that my cash flow was dependant in each order, I made it a policy to never cash a customers check until the order was on the truck being shipped. Kinda tough on me at times but the customer would never get burned if my world went up in flames.

...I didn't say that legal action is not legal, what I was trying to say is that few folks have any patience anymore and are too quick to take legal action before exhausting other approaches to the solution of the problem--when those tries don't work and legal action is the last resort, use it. I can understand being angry when promises are broken and cash is at risk--Lord knows most of us have to work hard for that cash. But I try to put myself in the other's shoes 1st--what is the situation? Am I really being flim-flammed or is there a situation beyond his control that he is trying to overcome? How is he handling it from his end? Unless you can talk with him, you don't know and you worry. In the Narragansett case, the owner had got into a bind, but then screwed up and started lying to customers--he didn't start out to flim-flam anyone, but it turned bad on him, because he started to lie to keep folks off his back. He'd been better off coming clean. Numerous other small shop gunmakers have had times like this--times when the orders outpace their output, sometimes through poor management, sometimes through factor they cannot control, like illness, etc. I really don't know how any of them can make much of a living making guns at the small profit margin they have. I do not know the Williams' except by reputation on the web. I hope they get in contact and make good on your order.

Oracle, Have you been able to make any progress. I wish you the best and please keep us posted. Rockerhound

quote:

the owner had got into a bind, but then screwed up and started lying to customers-

Mike R, you said it right there.
I have worked as a debt collector. Folks do go into a survival mode when they can't pay their bills. And, for many, lying and deceipt become their survival weapons. Once that happens, they don't go back. The only way to collect is to apply pressures that exceed their current comfort zone. If they are allowed to get away with it the debt they will always be comfortable owing others. After a certain period of time, the cannons (legal action) must be brought out. Sadly, human nature can seldom be trusted in these situations.

Guys strictly speaking, it's not a flim-flam (fraud) and it's not theft, unless you can show they never intended to make the gun for the customer. IF that's the case, it's also wire-fraud, as they offered the item for sale on the internet. That's a big set of "IF".

You may have a breach of contract if you had a fixed date of delivery, but if you allowed the maker to adjust that delivery date at anytime without your needing to agree to that date-change..., or if you never had a set date..., you're screwed, because you established that he has the right to change the date, or your delivery date is ambiguous, and not give you your money back if you demand it, so long as he makes a good faith effort to produce the gun. Included in that is the custom in the hobby that individual gunmakers routinely delay delivery of hand made guns..., and you get a situation of caveate emptor (buyer beware) and the court will decide you accepted the risk with the arrangement that you made.

Especially as some have pointed out, if he becomes ill, loses the lease on his shop and has to move, etc etc. Add to that if you didn't have an agreement where the maker must maintain and provide a reasonable manner in which you may contact him and to notify you immediately of any changes..., in person, phone or email, then again you're screwed. If the guy goes bankrupt, you're due $85.00 in a refund. AT no time would you be able to have the fellow jailed, as it's a civil matter.

If any maker does declare bankruptcy, the guy only has to pay you 10%, and can turn around the next day as an "employee" of a gun building business run by his friend, and nobody is the wiser.

The WORSE part is..., if he suddenly gets a bunch of canceled orders, and the cancellations mention your posts and the words "flim-flam", since that's inaccurate..., YOU have libeled him, and he may take action against you. Since you clearly identified yourself by your type of gun and date you sent in your last payment, ..., he'd have no trouble identifying you.

In the future, offer only half of the price. Make sure of a "drop-dead-delivery-date", no excuses for delay of work without an offer of a full refund, a promise that if he dies his estate will refund the money, and a promise to maintain contact with you or offer a full refund. Might not actually work, but gives you a better chance.

And don't despair, you may still get your gun.

LD

I have heard on several forums that they were in the process of moving, I hope that this is the case and all will be well for those envolved.

quote:

Originally posted by Oracle:
Any you fellers have any contact with EARY RUSTIC ARMS

LARRY @ tERRY WILLIAMS; PROPRIETORS.
CAMDENTON, MO 06020

I orederd a Cumberland Boat gun from them over a year ago and have heard nothing. I paid $850.00 up
front. I can't raise them by normal means.
I feel a little peevish about now.
Oracle

O
On another forum it was said that the ERA folks did reply to a call as late as this week end. and another reported this as the phone number, with the notation that the phones are bad and can be a problem.....the # is 573-216-2531. Hope this helps. Keep us posted.

P

Howdy folks,

There was a post that I replied to in the firearms forum- similar subject.

Oracle, all I can say is keep trying the number. I've talked to Terry a few times in the past couple weeks. My gun was "due" May 5, but I really wasn't expecting that seeing as how they transitioned the business and all.

They told me up front that delivery dates were just an estimation and there was no way to predict delivery. I also only had to pay 400 dollars up front (for a swamped barrel)- straight was like 300 or so. I'm curious as to why you needed to pay everything before the final shipping notice. hmmm... strange. ANyways, make sure to leave a message when you call him!

Does the campfire have any more information on this. How is Oracle doing?

My gun is being shipped as we speak. When Terry called me to finalize everything last week he said he had hoped to get it to me a few months ago (I ordered mine in May’08. To me, it’s understandable. He was very up front from the get-go that the one year period was only an estimate. It took about fifteen months (or at least it will have, when it arrives at my door). I was personally never worried, but that’s just me. I’ll post again when it arrives.