MUZZLELOADER Magazine    The Campfire: Main Forum List  Hop To Forum Categories  The Campfire Discussion Forums  Hop To Forums  Tall Tales    New International Gun Treaty?
Page 1 2 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
New International Gun Treaty?
 Login/Join
 
Booshway
posted
Lads - I am slowly becoming aware that a wide reaching new international gun treaty is about to be signed by our Sec'y of State. I am unsure why, but I have read a good deal of commentary that indicates this will be a drastic blow to the 2nd Amendment rights we now enjoy.

One other thing I have been told is that it will severely impact the importation of foreign-made arms - and that would include folks like Pedersoli, Armi Sport, the Indians, etc, etc.
In a way it seems this would be great for our American gun industry, I would think.

Can any of the folk on this forum possibly give us an overview of what this is all about?

I am sure it would be appreciated a great deal - I sure will!

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of SCLoyalist
posted Hide Post
The idea behind the 'warnings' about a UN Arms treaty is that Article 6 of the US Constitution makes the Constitution and all ratified treaties the supreme law of the land:
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

If the US ratified a treaty that restricted gun rights, those treaty provisions would trump existing state and Federal laws. You can Google "Small Arms Treaty" or "U.N. Gun Treaty" or go to the NRA-ILA website and do a site search on "Treaty" and get an idea of what's going on. My understanding is that any such treaty may only be in draft stages, and the U.S. wouldn't be directly affected by it unless or until 2/3 majority of the Senate voted to ratify it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SCLoyalist,


Here's a health to the King and a lasting Peace. May Faction end and Wealth increase....Old Loyalist Ballad
 
Posts: 767 | Location: Panhandle Florida | Registered: 02 February 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hivernant
posted Hide Post
So, what happens if the treaty is ratified and then next year the UN makes an amendment to it? Does it have to be re-ratified? Not sure I want foreign nations deciding what I can and can't do in the good ol USA.

Seems like that is what the Revolutionary War was about.... toss off a yoke just to put it back on... Not good business in my book.


anything worth shooting is worth shooting once.
 
Posts: 126 | Location: Demokratik Republik of Washington | Registered: 29 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
posted Hide Post
BALDERDASH!

OK first let me point out that what the Constitution and our laws say, vs. the current administration and "executive order" by the president may be up to debate..., there have been several blatant times when folks in DC have simply ignored the Constitution..., the president appointed people with "recess appointments" when Congress was still in session, and the current health care bill was proclaimed a "tax" but didn't originate in the House (two examples for you).

The current document that may one day become a treaty is about restriction of international arms sales..., and antique replicas would probably not be included.

Next, it would require 2/3 of the Senate to ratify the treaty, and depending on how the treaty is constructed on paper, they may be able to ratify some parts and reject other parts... otherwise it gets rejected or accept as a whole.

Further it is completely false that a treaty is equal to the Constitution, and in Reid v. Covert c. 1957 it was decided by the Supreme Court that a treaty cannot supercede the Constitution.

Finally, a treaty amendment must go through all of the legal hurdles a new treaty must go through, for it to work in the United States.

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
posted Hide Post
quote:
there have been several blatant times when folks in DC have simply ignored the Constitution...,


How can we rely on the Constitution when our leaders don't recognize it?
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 25 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
posted Hide Post
Short answer: we can't. It takes an educated and informed populous to maintain liberty and we, unfortunately, have neither.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3559 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
posted Hide Post
Oh, they recognise it. They recognise that it stands in the way of their ruling (not running, RULING)the country the way they see fit, regardless of what the citizens of this nation want. They are willing to do anything they can think of to circumvent the Bill OF Rights, and the rest of the Constitution.
Make free speech illegal, so the people can't protest against the government; make freedom of assembly illegal, so the people can't gather in groups to protest; make firearms ownership illegal, so the people will be unarmed and defenceless against a tyrannical government.
These are the three main props of freedom that our "leaders" have already been trying to knock out from under us. Now, with this U.N. "treaty", they're trying to bring foreign powers in to subdue the "reactionary" populace.
Believe that, if/when the UN treaty is passed, the current government will do EVERYTHING it can to enforce that treaty in this country, even if the steps they take are not only unconstitutional, but also illegal(since illegality bothers them not one whit!).
 
Posts: 527 | Location: New Jersey(for now) | Registered: 24 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
posted Hide Post
Tall Tales?
 
Posts: 349 | Location: Kentucky | Registered: 14 September 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
posted Hide Post
Loyal Dave - Thanks kindly - that is a great explanation of the situation and I now have a good idea, in general, of what this is all about.

The applicability of any such treaty to the arms we are interested in (pre 1898, or replica) is a question, but it is the larger question of how this may eventually be used to impact the 2nd amendment rights that is the big gorilla in the room.

Lostrifle - Lest us garner the ire of Miss Linda, I suggest we keep this to a discussion of the treaty, not our overall view of politics.

tneiaber - Where else would you have posted this? Best to stick to the issue, methinks.

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of SCLoyalist
posted Hide Post
Here's 2 links to discussions of the treaty. The first is a Pittsburg Tribune article referenced on the NRA-ILA website:
http://triblive.com/opinion/21...ip-trade-casa-lawful

and the second just by Googling "arms treaty"


http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/untreaty.asp


Maybe not too surprisingly, the NRA is more worried about the possible treaty than is Snopes. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.


Here's a health to the King and a lasting Peace. May Faction end and Wealth increase....Old Loyalist Ballad
 
Posts: 767 | Location: Panhandle Florida | Registered: 02 February 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of arkansawwind
posted Hide Post
Gentlemen and linda,I am not going to politicise, but I will state my personal view. The constution and all the other amendments are empty words on a worthless piece of paper. If we ever lose our second amendment right liberity as we know it will cease. with out the right to keep and bare arms there is no way we can protect our other rights. If you want to see your children and grandchildren to enjoy the rights we have to day. A patriot will do every thing in their power to preserve the second amendment. I will give my blood my hornor my life topreserves amendment 2. What will you choose. I stand my ground, there is no backing down. Your fellow american arkansawwind
 
Posts: 745 | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hivernant
posted Hide Post
NRA hystrionics asside, I dont think this will effect us much. The UN has been trying o ban Landmines for 50 years and hasnt succeeded. Its like herding cats. A huge portion of Italy's exports is small arms, not just our replicas but modern military weapons too. I dont think they are likely to give that up without a fight.
 
Posts: 129 | Location: Southern California | Registered: 28 April 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
posted Hide Post
Also remember that this idea has been floating around for several years..., just as the land mine issue has...., it surfaced recently in the news as the UN took some action to start talking about it, and may allow IRAN to be part of the talks. The biggest part of the treaty is who can sell arms to whom..., and selling to non-UN member states one of the key points if this passes..., well Communist China IS a member, while Republic of Taiwan is NOT, and the US would have to stop sending arms and technology for weapons guidance to Taiwan.

So if this was around in the 1860's, it would've prohibited the United Kingdom from supplying the CSA. (See how this can tie in with some history, though post 1840 Big Grin)

AND the great [modern] flaw in James Madison's Federalist Papers #10 (iirc the number) is that he recognized that the population would naturally form groups for one interest or another, but that the size of the voting population would help to prevent smaller, rogue groups from running rough shod over the Constitution..., he never imagined a population that would not pay attention to the actions of the government. (this works for our period with discussion Big Grin)

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Deadeye
posted Hide Post
This is all so wrong what is happening in our government these days and to think this won't effect everyone of us in one way or another is like thinking our government is covering our backs! That so called Sec'y of State is a joke and if this treaty goes thru then that's just opening the door for more rights being taken away. This current government will do and say whatever they want to get what they want.....when all they get is a slap on the hand for getting caught at something illegal or fauled up fire arms deal then what's to keep them honest....nothing.

Guys....I love my firearms and my freedom and I sure don't want them taken away but I think we all are going to have to fight for them even if that means states leaving the union.
 
Posts: 1452 | Location: Good Ole USA of course! | Registered: 15 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
posted Hide Post
quote:
Guys....I love my firearms and my freedom and I sure don't want them taken away but I think we all are going to have to fight for them even if that means states leaving the union.



I've thought the same thing for several years now.


Know what you believe in. Fight for your beliefs. Never compromise away your rights.
 
Posts: 1296 | Location: Cherokee Land, Tenasi | Registered: 06 January 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
posted Hide Post
Gentlemen:I remember when N.J. passed their firearms I.D. card law. It only pertained to the purchase of firearms after the law was passed. you didn't need to have it on your person while hunting or target shooting. Thats what we were told, give them an inch and they will take your rights. At the age of 68 an rwracked with back pain for which nothing can be done, except for prescriptions of Vicadin ES, I figure that I will resist any law that is unjust. After all what can they do to me? Put me out of my misery? But Isure will enjoy the fight.
 
Posts: 353 | Location: Pocono Mts. in PA | Registered: 12 June 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
posted Hide Post
I grew up in southern New Jersey. In 1962, when I was 14, I was allowed by NJ law to go hunting without any adult supervision. I often walked alone from my home in a suburban neighborhood, out into the surrounding fields while carrying a double barreled shotgun over my shoulder and leading my beagle. No one EVER said a word about it.

In 1965 I got my driver's license and bought a little motorcycle. That autumn I would often strap my shotgun over my shoulder, and hop on my bike and ride through the center of town and out into the countryside for miles around. I was NEVER stopped by police, and again nothing was ever said about my open carrying of a shotgun.

Try that in NJ today! Try it anywhere! Now days many people don't believe that I could have ever done that.

We have fallen far!


Know what you believe in. Fight for your beliefs. Never compromise away your rights.
 
Posts: 1296 | Location: Cherokee Land, Tenasi | Registered: 06 January 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
posted Hide Post
I remember those day as well, Rancocas, though I lived far enough out that I didn't have to go through town. I do remember, however, walking through town with an exposed rifle/shotgun I'd just bought or traded and attracting no attention.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3559 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
posted Hide Post
Thank god that fellow in Colorado had his rights protected to buy as many guns and as much ammo as he wanted. So what if 12 people died...the second amendment has to be protected no matter the cost. If this kind of paranoid nonsense is what Muzzleloader has come to then maybe it's time to think about a different pastime.
 
Posts: 52 | Location: Astoria, Oregon | Registered: 30 January 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of roundball
posted Hide Post
There's no way to legislate anything that would block the occasional whacko from doing something tragic, that would still be fair and equitable to the other 99.99999% of the hard working, tax paying, law abiding population.

He could just as easily had a small duffle bag with a half dozen pipe bombs at the ready with 3" fuses like a firecracker...light and toss, light and toss, etc.

As unfortunate as this terrible incident was, the shock value of it is because it was consolidated at one time...more people than that have been killed across the country in the little bit of time since...just one at a time and you don't hear about it nationally.


Flintlock Rifles & Smoothbores
Hunt Like The Settlers
 
Posts: 1867 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 28 January 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 

MUZZLELOADER Magazine    The Campfire: Main Forum List  Hop To Forum Categories  The Campfire Discussion Forums  Hop To Forums  Tall Tales    New International Gun Treaty?

2014 Historical Enterprises, LLC