Well I didn't get much response from the bannock question...what about sour dough? I know it dates back to the ancient times but is there any reference to it pre-1840 on the American frontier?

Is sourdough PC? That depends on how you define PC. It is certainly correct for the time period, since sourdough has been in common usage since the days of ancient Egypt (c. 1500 BCE). However, the question remains: "would the person you are reenacting have used sourdough?" I'm sure that it's use was common enough in the cities and settlements, even out to the frontier's edge - but so far the earliest reference I have found to it's common use in the American west is the Calfornia Gold Rush of 1849. From what I've read, the Mountain Man's diet(e.g. fur trade era)consisted primarily of meat, meat and more meat. I don't think they ate much in the way of breads, and only the occasional root or berry.

That being said, there's few things as tastey as a good sourdough biscuit, fresh from the dutch oven, slathered with butter. Maybe not PC, but delicious.

I have read several articles in magazines in the past few months about "sourdough" bread.

The problem you will have with dating sourdough is with the term. Sourdough is NOT bread made from a "sponge" kept overnight or for a few days, to be used to leaven the next batch of bread. NOPE. Sourdough bread is leavened from a dough sponge that has yeast and is also infected with a strain of lactobacilli bacteria, and it's the bacteria that "sours" the dough, giving it the smell and wonderful taste.

So the fact that a culture such as Egypt held dough from the previous batch to be used to leaven the next batch of bread might mean they had sourdough, or it might not. The storage container, often a lidded ceramic pot (leaving it out in the open air = insect contamination), and the time between batches will help determine if souring occurs.

The same is true for old, colonial recipes, where they did the same, but never mentioned the fact the sponge had soured. Heck some of the strains of sourdough sponge are hundreds of years old, and the users might not have known they had sourdough, and just thought that was how the bread was supposed to taste (so never mentioned it). Lactobacilli are numerous, so for the well educated palate, San Francisco sourdough is different from other types, just as yeast is different giving you different flavors of the same style of ale.

I myself have made starter sponges from very old brewer's yeast strains (brewing yeast was the yeast used for bread in the 18th century). I have had the sponge sour once. The other times it did not, although it was mantained for many weeks before being given away. The loss of the sour sponge was a personal tragedy for it was natural for my area. <heavy sigh>

I will try very soon an experiment to introduce lactobacilli via a drop of yogurt to a new sponge to see if that works.

LD

Loyalist Dave would a drop of sour cream also work ?

We have both used sourdough sponges for some time. I made one using whole wheat and spelt flour which worked great. But I let it sit way too long and decided it was dangerous. My spouse uses one with white flour for any kind of bread or pancakes, etc. We have never added commercial yeast to the sponge, though occasionally a specific recipe calls for adding some to the recipe itself to give it a boost.
I don't know for a fact, but I've assumed (and you know what that means) that sourdough starter is what was mostly available for people living on the fringes of society if not in town where commercial yeasts such as brewer's yeast might be available. The name "sourdough" may indicate a difference, as LD suggests, in the amount of time and the nature of the exposure to ambient air. I just know it tastes good!

Dick

I didn't ask my question correctly. There is an occasional reference to flour on some inventory lists of the mountain man era. I read that flour was used to thicken stew and another reference (Ferris) about a flour,lard and meat dumpling. I think neither one would require a rising agent but I was wondering if anyone had any documentation of sourdough on the frontier pre-1840. I haven't read of any such use myself.

quote:

Loyalist Dave would a drop of sour cream also work ?

Hmmmm, well I thought of using the yogurt as it was "live culture" but I don't know if SC is alive or not...??

LD

hi ya all,
well here is a topic that will generate a lot of talk! being an old school alaskan i could not help but reply tosome of this. you can make a starter with only a little flour and warm water and let sit in a vented covered container to sour for a week gathering it's own natural yeast enzymes from the air , you can use the water from boiling potatoes as well mixed with flour, or you can cheat and mix a little yeast flour, sugar and warm water for the same result. to get any of these to really sour takes time and patience. when you get a real sour starter you will have to use a pinch or so of baking soda mixed with a little water in your recipe (do not put this in your starter jar !) this will neutrilize the acids that make it so sour and also promote a leavining effect.BEWARE!!! for those of you using any dairy products whatso ever you must refrigerate your starter! or it can be quite nasty as well as dangerous. i do not refrigerate mine as it is a basic starter, i stir it each day add a lttle flour to it once a week and make sure i use it as much as my cravings demand. using this method i have never had any issues health wise but do take note if it starts to smell bad or take on a odd color when it does this 86 it .if it is in a fairly wrm room keep an eye on it cause it get's bored and will go for a walk on ya !! lol ask me how i know this !!!! sadly as i have traveled the alcan for almost 40 years there is only one road house that keeps a starter, due to the high maintenance or the tour yuppies crying to the lawyers . aint nothing like walking into a kitchen where the wood cookstove is and smelling that yeasty smell from the pot (now i'm hungry ) of courseif you reall need a drink and can't wait until 5 oclock the liquid on top of the starter is almost pure alcolhol! nasssssssssssssssty!! have had to help a pso (sherrif ) in a village once that was dry so they would drink this and go crazy -sourdough beer --bewack as it is known . well that is all enjoy playing with the sourdough thanx smitty

I would think that if you were to find any reference to it at all, you would have to look at records centered around fort activity, someplace with an established kitchen of some sort. I just don't see anyone hauling a glob of dough around on horse back.

quote:

Originally posted by Pilgrim:
Is sourdough PC? That depends on how you define PC. It is certainly correct for the time period, since sourdough has been in common usage since the days of ancient Egypt (c. 1500 BCE). However, the question remains: "would the person you are reenacting have used sourdough?" I'm sure that it's use was common enough in the cities and settlements, even out to the frontier's edge - but so far the earliest reference I have found to it's common use in the American west is the Calfornia Gold Rush of 1849. From what I've read, the Mountain Man's diet(e.g. fur trade era)consisted primarily of meat, meat and more meat. I don't think they ate much in the way of breads, and only the occasional root or berry.

That being said, there's few things as tastey as a good sourdough biscuit, fresh from the dutch oven, slathered with butter. Maybe not PC, but delicious.

What is "BCE" ?

Three Hawks

BCE=before common era...it supposed to replace BC(before Christ)....

quote:

Originally posted by Mitch:
BCE=before common era...it supposed to replace BC(before Christ)....

What is that all about, trying no to offend someone? Ain't workin' Charlie. I'm offended as all get out. If you're in America where more than 95 in 100 are Christian, it's BC= Before Christ.

Three Hawks

B.C.E. Before CHRISTIAN (or COMMON)ERA,one does not replace the other,just another way to say the same thing.REF.Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language.
No offence meant or taken.

It's got all the earmarks of some idiot's politically correct bowdlerization of BC.

Why is it that the only group in the US that has an approved target for religous and political discrimination on its collective back is White Male Christians? It seems perfectly all right to offend us, while anyone who has a deeper base tan or sits to pee is totally off limits to the point of utter idiocy.

Totally Pee Ohed ol'

Three Hawks

SOUR DOUGH.If YOU aasume that to be your lot in life so be it.You sir are welcome in my camp,HOWEVER I will NOT discuse POLITICS OR RELIGION or Pretty woman WITH ANYONE,especially on this site,you have your and I have mine.That said what is your take on SOUR DOUGH and when/if it is P/C?I contend it is a long way back.Who had the first starter and where did it come from???If you have some starter how can I get/start some to use in the time too come???See the first skein of Canadian headed N/NE today while I was making Maple Syrup,spring the start of all that is good.Wont be long and the flowers will be up,the garden in and the sun will warm these old bones,looking forward to the colts running and the calves being born,chickens,never had any,wife wants to have some,might look into that.Grandkids,3 boys and a girl, down yesterday,sure have lots of questions,the answers to which I havnt thought about for years.Ever wonder why a tree gives sap and it can become Maple Syrup? I know the answer just never thought about it for a long time,and try to explain it to the kids.Great things those Grandkids,you got any???See you up the trail.It rained today and the wife and I went for a walk in the woods,ever notice how the first rain of spring appears to be so special,wish there was a mudpuddle to jump in but not in the woods,did set by the stream and watch the snow go to the river by way of the brook,wonder if the trout will be there this year?? Dry last year, not a good year for the trout,maybe different this time,can only hope.I was given today by HIM,what I do with it is up to me,hope I dont disapoint.
PS. Webster IMMHO wasnt an idiot,he knew lots of word and what they meant.From one WMC,Paul said it best.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Walking Crow,

Handling the parts with bare hands will deposit oils, so be sure to wear some type of gloves for the degreasing and browning.

LD

LD.....HUH????

That was weird! I was trying to post to a thread on browning metal parts. I must've opened a reply window for this, then forgot about it, and opened one for the gunmaking thread, and put my comment into the wrong box?? That's the only reason I can figure out how I did that..., odd to say the least eh?

LD

Thet could be innerestin'! Cleanin' an' degreasin' yer sourdough starter!
Hehehehehe

Doesn't Everybody clean and degrease their bread starter???? Hee, hee, hee, hee!!! It's OK LD. yer allowed several goofs per year. All of us are.... Hee, hee, hee, it was funny though....