Near the end of the book of his adventures, in 1837 or '38, Joe Meek recalls an incident regarding bread. He sees some missionary wives cooking bisquits with a reflector oven (by itself, that is interesting). He convinces an indian to trade them for a bisquit and bring him one. He gets it and savors the taste of bread for the FIRST TIME IN NINE YEARS. So, can we say reflector ovens are 'authentic' at rendezvous but bread isn't?

prolly so. th' injuns liked t' cut th' fleece along th' backbone off'n a buffler--thar'd be a coupla 5-pound strips er better--dunk it in hot grease fer half a minute, 'n then smoke it, 'n use that fer bread. so'd th' hivernants, ef they wuz set up fer it; it'd last all winter ef ye had enuff. southern injuns baked a bread; northern's et camus, which wuz mostly a mush, i think. not much bread in th' shinin' mountains.
mind yer topknot! windy

quote:

Originally posted by Rifleman1776:
Near the end of the book of his adventures, in 1837 or '38, Joe Meek recalls an incident regarding bread. He sees some missionary wives cooking bisquits with a reflector oven (by itself, that is interesting). He convinces an indian to trade them for a bisquit and bring him one. He gets it and savors the taste of bread for the FIRST TIME IN NINE YEARS. So, can we say reflector ovens are 'authentic' at rendezvous but bread isn't?

I think you're extending things a bit beyond what we can infer from the story. Many things were available during the Rendezvous period of 1830-1840 but would hardly have been used by an actual trapper. Reflector ovens were in common use during pre-revolutionary times, as were cast iron utensils, china cups, and silverware but wouldn't likely have been taken on an extended trek where weight and space were as big a deal as they to a trapper. The lack of "bread" speaks more to the unavailability of wheat flour than to the ability to bake it. I've baked bisquits in an open fire, wrapped on a stick, and in a reflector oven. All that's needed are flour, grease, salt and some kind of leavening. Clean fly ash is a good leavening.

Where in the wilderness would a fur trapper obtain a commodity as heavy, difficult to transport and as easily spoiled as flour? Remember, "olde fashyndde wheaten flour" keeps as poorly as fresh milk. It wasn't until the development of de-germed flour that it could be stored and transported over long time periods and distances, even then it is vey heavy and prone to spoilage, just let it get damp. Also we must remember out old friend the weevil who likes to live in flour.

Our idea of "Rendezvous" has become merely car camping pretty much as practiced in the 1930's, not the 1830's. Look at the gear at any modern Rondy. Cast iron ovens, pots and pans, factory made charcoal briquets, Enamelware coffee pots, cups and plates, kerosene lamps and lanterns, plastic plates, stainless knives, forks and spoons, aluminum coffee pots, sauce pans and kettles, Air mattresses, tennis shoes, levi's, polyfleece hoodies, blue tarps, nylon tents, and ropes, canned food, fresh milk. ground coffee, soda pop, kitchen matches, bic lighters, flashlights, propane and gasoline stoves, the list goes on and on and on.

Curmudgeonly ol'

Three Hawks

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The other problem may be one of terminology. "Biscut" today means something made of wheat flour and baking soda or baking powder, plus water. "Biscut" is also used in England to refer to what we today call a "cookie". "Bread" in some areas refers to a product leavened with yeast. Any other leavening isn't "bread" to some folks, and biscuts made without any leavening are called today "beaten biscuts" and resemble unleavened soft pretzels in consistency. So was Mr. Meek commenting that he hadn't had a wheat product in nine years, OR..., was he commenting that he hadn't had a wheat product made with yeast in nine years?

LD

Three Hawks, please lighten up.
That post was meant to be as much levity as information. I understand everything you said and agree. But, sometimes a little zinger tossed in to a post can make a point as well.

quote:

So was Mr. Meek commenting that he hadn't had a wheat product in nine years, OR..., was he commenting that he hadn't had a wheat product made with yeast in nine years?

Likely the latter, ships biscuit was fairly common in the trade records. Meek worked for Wyeth and the Ft. Hall records show Navy bread in their inventory. We often think of these guys as being far from the reach of civilization, but in fact even the most remote of them traded at least annually for eastern made goods.

Also, Rifleman, I don't really think 3 Hawks was tossing a personal zinger at you. I doubt he knows anything about your gear. I just read it as a comment about how we should not use that quote to justify a myriad of blacksmith made fire gear for rendezvous, which is not exactly where you intended the post to go but still a valid point.

Sean

Ok buy a round,no pinkie fingers sticking out either,there will be no cutting,bitting,eye gouging allowed.Hand shakes and Hugs( bear hugs only,no limp wristed paw grabs either) are allowed.If they were eating Navy Bisquits, hard tack/ships bisquit,MAYBE, they didnt spoil by being wet,that was the only way you could chew them.It's all about the TERM or the Period it is used in,correct or incorrect????????With the number of sailors jumping ship,could be on was a cook and there would be your source of the bread,bisquit,hard tack,muffin,cruller,ships bread.............thing they were eating and wrote about.

walking crow-what do you mean in your post? it's more than a bit confusing to me...

No zingers or insults intended at all.

I was just pointing out the tendency of folks to extend the "availability" of things at the original Fur Rendezvous. When I began in this hobby in the late 60's one would occaisionally see a candle in someone's camp, or even, God Forbid, a black speckled enamel cup. Then someone thought they saw in a book that a man named Dietz patented a lantern and in 1840 began manufacturing it. Today the commonest illumination device at rondy is a kerosene barn lantern. The justification for the lantern was that it was available in 1840. Not that there was a documented instance of someone having one at a rendezvous or one listed on a trader's manifest, but that it was available, somewhere. Actually, Dietz didn't begin making kerosene lanterns until 1856.

Same thing, pretty much, with cooking utensils and fire irons. Purported mountain man camps today have more and better kitchen equimpment than a prosperous 1830 farmer's wife with a nice house and a servant would have had. Stainless steel abounds as does granite ware which wasn't GENERALLY available until the 1890's, aluminum, polythelene(Tupperware), paper plates, cups and napkins, and all manner of chairs and tables made of milled lmumber. Walk through the primitive camp at almost any rendezvous and tell me I'm wrong.

Lest anyone take umbrage, I'm guilty too. I have a little pre-war German made alcohol stove which lives in my grub box with a quart bottle of denatured alcohol. It's for bad weather and burn bans so I can have my coffee and my fried egg samidge for breakfast and heat my ready-to-serve stew and/or pork'n'beans for lunch and supper. There's a plastic cooler in my tent as well, containing some tinned adult beverages, luncheon cold cuts, and my medi-kit with my pharmacopea, syringes and insulin as well as my best pal, Ozzy's meds. My 4" thick sleeping pad lays on the ground wrapped in a WWII surplus poncho, albeit covered with a HBCo type all wool blanket. During the day all the non primitive looking goodies are covered with sundry bits of canvas or striped HBCo looking blankets. As soon as possible, there'll be a somewhat primitivish looking campaign bed made of pine containing my sleeping pad, in order to get my creaky bones and Ozzy's off the ground about a foot or so. That will also be where the deep cycle battery for my CPAP will be hidden.

There, if confession is good for the soul, mine should be just about perfect. For an hour or so anyway.

Three Hawks

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My zing was intended for any thread counters amongst us.
Actually, I didn't know reflector ovens were used in that time period, mountains or anywhere.
Not the first time my poor excuse for subtle humor has been misunderstood.

Mitch first part tongue in cheek,:Let's be friendly" last part, question/brain wonder as to could the term used be also hard tack,Navy bread,ships biscuit etc.ate "bread waffers" in some C-rats in 1969 that were made/packed in 1941,hard as a woodpeckers lip.

quote:

Originally posted by Walking Crow:
Mitch first part tongue in cheek,:Let's be friendly" last part, question/brain wonder as to could the term used be also hard tack,Navy bread,ships biscuit etc.ate "bread waffers" in some C-rats in 1969 that were made/packed in 1941,hard as a woodpeckers lip.

When I was a sprog, my Scout Troop, (Tr.175 North Seattle) was the grateful recipient of about a ton and a half of war surplus "C" and "K" rations. Most of us loved 'em including the "bread wafers" which I recognized as Pilot Bread. Mom bought that at the store for me to take on camping trips. The "C" rat. stuff tasted the same as the fresh ones from the store, by the way. The only things in those rations we didn't especially care for were the horribly stale, completely dried up green label Lucky Strike cigarettes.

(Smoked 'em anyway, NO ONE looks as tough as a 12 yr. old with a 20 some year old unfiltered smoldering Lucky hangin' from his lip.)

Three Hawks

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quote:

Originally posted by Rifleman1776:
Actually, I didn't know reflector ovens were used in that time period, mountains or anywhere.

Rifleman: I did some research on reflector ovens(aka tin kitchen)some time ago, and not only were they in common use in the settlements as far back as the colonial period, I found some designs for folding versions that fold up flat, and weigh less than a pound. This could easily have been carried in a pack or on a pack animal into the hinterlands, although I have read no documentation to support that it actually was used by trappers. More likely would have been brought and used by the traders at rendezvous or at fixed trading posts. I think Three Hawks is spot on: The flour needed to make bread/biscuits would weigh more than the oven.

In the book ARUNDEL Arnold carried/tried to move alot of flour up the Kennebec River.Much to his misery.Three Hawks Did yours have the" Water Transporter Liners" still in them????That is how they were listed in the packing inventory and that is what they were intended for.I liked the tan Chocolate pucks.Anyone who can still smoke a Lucky is TOUGH,when you rolled the old ones between your fingers they did have a certian crunch and smell to them.

Narcissa Whitman was the missionary lady that baked the biskit.In 1836 at horse creek. She also mentions the way the trappers made their bread with flour in her journal. Granted, this was at the Renezvous NOT out on the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Walking Crow:
In the book ARUNDEL Arnold carried/tried to move alot of flour up the Kennebec River.Much to his misery.Three Hawks Did yours have the " Water Transporter Liners" still in them???? That is how they were listed in the packing inventory and that is what they were intended for. I liked the tan Chocolate pucks.Anyone who can still smoke a Lucky is TOUGH, when you rolled the old ones between your fingers they did have a certian crunch and smell to them.

Ya gots ta remember that my 12th Summer was 53 years ago, at the acme of the Dark Ages. I'm doing dang well to remember details of last week. And that was also the end of my (tobacco) smoking. I vividly remember heaving my guts out.

Three Hawks

quote:

(Smoked 'em anyway, NO ONE looks as tough as a 12 yr. old with a 20 some year old unfiltered smoldering Lucky hangin' from his lip.)

Now that's funny...Did you have to at least smoke outside the tents? Best regards. Rockerhound

We weren't supposed to be smokin'
em at all so we pretty much smoked 'em wherever we dang pleased.

I had a candle lantern that served most of it's useful life inside my tent, too. This was in the day before candy assed lawyers and "Thoroughly Modern Mommies" ran the BSA. We also carried actual hunting knives, real axes and more often than not, at least one of us had .22 rifle along. We cooked over open fires and ate meat, too. None of the current politically correct Boy Sissies of America crap.

We knew when and how to ditch around a tent, and when and how to build a fire. When my kid was in Scouts I was in trouble with BSA about half the time. Had one nancy-boy from National dress me down for teaching the kids how to build a fire one time saying we should teach only "No Impact Camping". I asked him if he'd ever gotten good and wet, like from falling in a creek or getting caught in a rainstorm? He hadn't. I told him that knowing how to build a fire in adverse conditions could be the difference between life and death. What he promoted might better be called "No Impact Dieing". He wasn't too thrilled about our boys being competent at setting traps made out of what's there, cleaning, cooking and eating the little furries they caught, either. The kids called him "Twig Boy" from a character on "King of The Hill". Every one of our kids had 5 feet of stranded picture wire for making snares in his pack and knew how to use it.

Three Hawks

No Impact Camping? What the H--l is that? OH, I remember,Thats where they go down to the Sarbucks for their morning capachino( or how ever you spell it),and then go back and tell the kids"isnt it fun to be roughing it?!"LOL You sound like you had the same scout master I did. Bunch of us went coon hunting all weekend one time(with scout master)

The no impact camping is called "leave no trace". In other words, pick up your garbage and leave the area you camped in in as good of condition or preferably better condition than when you got there. I'm one of the scout leaders in this area. Yes, there are a lot of "rules" and such but we do what we can, or are allowed to do. For some of these kids, the BSA is the only "outlet" they have for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, times have changed since we were kids, and not so much for the better as you all know. A lot of these kids have never held a gun before. All they know is what they see in the movies or on T.V. I agree, they need much more exposure in a positive setting. I was going to give a black powder shooting demonstration this weekend for a group of kids (not the BSA, but older teenagers, male and female). Let them do some hands on shooting (if allowed). However, scheduals change, as mine did, and I can't do it now. Hopefully another time. Best regards. Rockerhound