Madison Grant's book on knives mentioned earlier focuses on frontier, home made knives. If the Bowie was a 'regular butcher knife,' and IF that meant it was a commonly sold item, then it wasn't in Madison Grant's book. On the other hand, if a regular butcher knife was one anyone could make, then it could be in Madison's book.

Talk about confusing...

Sparks

This is from my not too good memory.....
1. There was the Famous Sandbar Fight were Jim Bowie cuts up his foes big time. Accounts of his "terrible knife" spread across the country in newspaper accounts. Suddenly everyone wants a "Bowie Knife". What the original knife used in the fight looks like is unknown, there are conflicting reports. One account was that the knife was forged by a Blacksmith, I think his name was Black and he was from Missouri.
2. Several American made "Bowie Knives" come into existence, some connected to the Bowie family but different from the knife used in the fight.
3. Sheffield picks up on the craze and starts turning out lots of "Bowie Knives" Some have a spear point but most have the clip point commonly thought of as a "Bowie Knife"
4. Some Southern States enact laws against carrying the murderous Bowie Knives in public.
5. The "Missouri Ruffians" 1850's- or pre-Civil War were typically described with Bowie Knives.
6. Mountain man Beckwourth used a "Bowie Knife" in a duel in St. Louis- the knife given to him while in St. Louis. I think (Just an idea) that maybe a Bowie knife was too heavy to tote around in the wilderness- such as the Rocky Mountains. The Bowie Knives may have been more of a Southern- up and down the Mississippi River- riverfront toughs- St. Louis- New Orleans type article.

Hello the fire!F.W.I.W,this is a quote from Rezin Bowie,Jim's brother:"the first bowie knife was made by myself in the parrish of Avoyelles(Louisiana)as a hunting knife for which purpose it was used for many years,the length of the blade was 9 1/4 inches,its width was 1 1/2,single edged and blade not curved.Family records indicate the knife was made by a blacksmith by the name of Jesse Cliffe

To see what this knife kinda looked like,go to Dixie's website and look up the Searles Bowie,but instead of a rounded handle,make it slab-sided,of ebony,with silver mounts.BUT ! Rezin's own knife had a 10 1/4 single edge blade of 1/4 stock,1 13/16 wide.I got all of this from the Knife Digest,first edition 1974.

The Bowie knife is oft discussed and much misinformation exists about "it" [in quotes because there is NO single type Bowie knife]. I have researched this topic for many years and if you'll forgive me I'll outline my conclusions, based on a lot of reading of original sources: Jim's "first knife" of record was a hunting knife [butcher style] that older bro John said was only 12" long, handle and all [meaning the blade could not be over 8"]. In ca. 1827 just before the sandbar fight that propelled James into fame bro Rezin gave Jim a butcher knife made on his plantation by a smith named Jesse Clifft. It had a 9 1/4" blade without guard or clip point [straight-backed] and wood slab handles. This is what he used at the sandbar where he was wounded several times by bullets and a sword cane. He was not expected to live. Meanwhile Rezin replaced his knife with the one now called the Perkins Bowie--if you ever in Jackson, Miss., it is in the History Museum there in the Mex War case--perhaps the most importand Bowie in existence, as it shows the "original design". This knife has a 10 1/4" straight topped blade, no guard, but the blade extends below the handle like a french chef's knife. The handle is wood with silver trim. I had a copy made by a local smith and it balances better than almost any other Bowie I have ever handled. The Searles Bowies than Rezin had made later were "upgrades" of this style but with a half guard added. James Black comes into this story, but likely did not make the "first Bowie". Black, a Washington, Ark smith, made distinctive coffin-handled knives often with silver trim. One small Black knife survives [Berryville museum] inscribed as a gift from Bowie to a friend Tunstall. A large Black knife exists [Ark Territorial Museum, Little Rock] inscribed "Bowie No.1". I think it possible that Bowie took the plain sandbar butcher to Black and had him rehandle it with silver trim [Noah Smithwick recalled many years later that he had made a plain copy of the sandbar knife for Jim because Jim had had the original prettied up with ivory handle and silver trim and wanted to retire it from rough duty. Smithwick said his copy had wood slab handles and a 10" blade]. Lastly there is a heavy large [12" blade] butcher knife that was in the possession of an actor friend of Bowie [Edw Forrest] that some claim to be the sandbar knife [too big], but could be an accurate if larger copy of it. After the sandbar fight made Jim famous, everyone clamored for a "knife like Bowie's" but no photo or sketch existed, so many styles of large knives were marketed as "Bowies". The English flooded the US market with big knives. Some of the earliest ones looked alot like Black styles. Noone knows what style knife Bowie had at the Alamo where his fame became immortality; but Sam Houston, a friend, carried a large Bowie which looked alot like the Perkins knife but with an added guard and abrupt clipped point. Numerous claimants exist for the "original" Bowie, but there was no "original Bowie", but a series of big knives. The Alamo knife is lost, despite some claims to the contrary. No evidence exists that Bowie ever owned a big, clip point full guard knife.

hoss, i bin studyin' on bowies fer quite a spell myse'f, 'n tend t'favor th' forrest blade as bein' th' 'riginal sandbar knife; but gittin' back t'th' boone knife--i recollect thet dixie wuz sellin' a repro uv a knife boone took offa injun, thet had it frum th' brits, who wuz bribin' chiefs with 'em back in th' lobsterback unpleasantness. it war s'posedta be identical to one in one o' th' boone museums. thet knife war a more-or-less bowie-type sticker, with a modified scandahoovian clip point on a fairly long, say 9", narrow blade; obviously more uv a sticker er a stabber than a wurkin', utility-type blade configgerashun--which, cum t'think on it, purt'near deefines th' bowie--but a manufactured, meant t'be impressive, ruther than cobbled t'gether weepon. ye gotta r'member, now, thet th' terms "butcher knife", "hunting knife", "b'ar knife" and "scalping knife" each has sev'ral disparate 'n only sumtimes sim'lar meanin's, readin' frum th' 17th century, which is whar my studies mostly started, through th' revolution, clark 'n lewis, th' 1812 fightin', th' sandbar, th' alamo, 'n th' fur trade (which runs frum th' 1600's to th' end o' th' 19th century 'n beyond); thar's too many folks thet try t'draw conclusions 'bout whut wuz carried by who 'thout studyin' on th' whole pitcher. each uv' th' above could've bin called a bowie sumwhere along th' way. it takes y'ars uv studyin' on the subjeck t'git as cornfused as i am 'bout it. mind yer topknot, now! windy

Windy you are not alone in thinking the Forrest knife is the sandbar knife, except for one little detail--it is way too big! There are only two eyewitness descriptions of the sandbar knife--a viewer of the fight says only that it was a "big butcher". But Rezin Bowie, Jim's brother, said it had a 9 1/4" blade, so either he was lying or the Forrest cannot be it [12" blade].

P.S. it is possible that Jim had the Forrest Bowie made after the sandbar fight and that it is an early true Bowie, but that is speculation. We have only the Forrest estates claim that that knife was Bowies at all. It certainly qualifies as a "big butcher" though....I have handled an exact copy and it is a handfull!

Im no expert, but I love this topic...For what its worth, I think the Carigan Bowie, and #1 are both pretty early. Guardless coffin hilts were being made in England and imported here and are known styles that were actually in use during JBs life time...they look like a big butcher knife, and there are some reputedly made by Black...another smith thats part of the legend...but then again, didnt Rezin add the guard so his knife was safer to use on bear...he once was cut badly when his hand slipped up a guardless version? Thats the hunting knife he said he loaned Jim at the sandbar I thought..so the guardless Bowies are kind of a mystery...but they are early, and have always had a Bowie/Black connection...
TCA

quote:

Originally posted by T.Albert:
Im no expert, but I love this topic...For what its worth, I think the Carigan Bowie, and #1 are both pretty early. Guardless coffin hilts were being made in England and imported here and are known styles that were actually in use during JBs life time...they look like a big butcher knife, and there are some reputedly made by Black...another smith thats part of the legend...but then again, didnt Rezin add the guard so his knife was safer to use on bear...he once was cut badly when his hand slipped up a guardless version? Thats the hunting knife he said he loaned Jim at the sandbar I thought..so the guardless Bowies are kind of a mystery...but they are early, and have always had a Bowie/Black connection...
TCA

There is so much legend, myth and heresay mixed in with the "Bowie story" that it is often hard to separate out "truth" from fiction. My uncle is a Carrigan [same family as the knife] and I have close ties to Old Washington, Ark where Black lived and worked--so I have had a longtime interest in those knives and that history. The Carrigan and "Bowie No.1" and several other [9 or 10] similar knives made by Black are early Arkansas Toothpicks. They were made in the 1820s-30s. Some British copies started showing up in America by the 1830s--attesting to both the early dates and the popularity of the style. I "discovered" the latest of these known Black style knives last year and wrote it up in Knife World mag. It is now in the Little Rock museum along with the Carrigan and Bowie No.1. But, it is clear, unless we choose to believe the myths and choose to think Rezin was lying [one of the few accounts from an eyewitness--and Jim's brother at that]that the sandbar knife was not of the Black style; and further that it was made in Louisiana, problably by Jesse Clifft. Black's knives are great early knives--and many British copies were etched "Arkansas Toothpick", not "Bowie Knife". [The pointed dagger idea of Arkansas toothpick comes much later--perhaps by the Civil War, although some critics ascribe the term to Thorpe's book on Bowie, which is loaded with myth.] Ya'll are free to believe whatever myths you like, I tire of the discussion because in the past many folks simply deny what few "facts" we have and wholeheartedly accept many legends and false or questionable claims--and will not listen to reason. It is human nature I guess. The only Black knife known that can be certainly linked to the Bowies was owned by Rezin and gifted to a Tunstal in Arkansas in the 1830s. In fact Rezin seems to have been the real "knife nut", owning and gifting many knives. Look up photos of the Perkins Bowie for the best picture of an original [and earliest known] Bowie knife. It was Rezin's personal knife [has his initials on the butt] prior to giving it to Perkins in 1831. The sandbar fight was 1827. Before that date noone had ever heard the term "Bowie knife". By the way, the story of Rezin adding a guard to protect his hand was probably made up by a descendant when she travelled around giving lectures on her famous ancestors--he may have asked Searles to add the half guard or Searles might have suggested it(?); but the lady used to tell the story as if Rezin invented guards for hunting knives--which we all know is not correct. Rezin left a detailed description of the sandbar knife in a letter to a newspaper, which survives. Plain butcher knife, straight topped--not clipped or sharpened, blade 9 1/4" long, wood slab handles, no mention of a guard. No one in the period ever descibed Jim's knife[knives] except Rezin [sandbar knife] and bro John [hunting knife, butcher with <8" blade]. Much later a 94 yr-old Smithwick claimed to have made a plain wood slab handled 10" blade butcher for Jim in ca. 1828. The Alamo was 1836. End of story. beginning of legend. Dig through all of the literature, separate fact from heresay, study the existing knives with documentation. Be wary of collectors who claim to own the Alamo Bowie [the Holy Grail of collectors of Bowies]. They have a vested interest. Fiction has controlled the story for many years--just look at how many custom knifemakers have made copies of the movie Iron Mistress Bowie knife despite the fact that it is a Prop department knife with NO historical antecedent. I give up...

Excellent post, Mike.
Only problem is, facts take the fun out of the argument.

Mike R, please e-mail me.
Frank

The Daniel Boone Replica Bowie is a genuine facsimile reproduction of a presumptive interpretation of an uncertain copy of an equivocal likeness of a speculative duplicate of a look-alike of a perception of a postulated slant on a assumption about a hypothetical knife that pretends to be an imaginary something Boone never had.

I hope that makes things clear?

and sumbuddy wuz givin' ME th' bizness 'bout bein' a englitch perfesser? mind yer tonsorials, thar, pichou! windy

Thanks Mike R. for all the great background info. Jim apparently carried different knives over a period of time, the Sandbar knife, the Alamo knife, etc. Even with Jim there really isn't any one particular pattern that he exclusively carried.

Fellas , early in this discussion one of you gave a address for the arkansas historical museum or something to that effect. The e mail address is listed in earlier comments made. I went on the site and learned some interesting things. Among them according to the web site, James Black was a very well known knife maker, according to them, Blacks knives were taken back to England, and copied and sent back over to the U S and sold to people affected by the Bowie knife craze. Check out that web site for particulars yours arkansaw

quote:

http://www.arkansashistory.com/knife_gallery/

Yeah, that Carrigan knife is a cute little bugger!

The Brits were always quick to fill a market... someplace online there are a bunch of images of the Sheffield "Arkansas Toothpick" Bowies. Pretty common to find Spanish style knives in the SW that were Brit made too.

There is alot of subtle construction detail on the coffin hilts attributed to Black that isnt very apparent in most photos...Black was a Philadelphia silversmith as well as a cutler I believe before he relocated to Arkansas, and the silver wrap and ropeing between the scales and metal of the handle really are excellent work...the overall balance and the false edge, (as explained to me it meant the blade was made primarily for fighting, to be held true edge up, false edge down and used for ripping and slashing)...that these early coffin hilts were the "grand daddys" of the Arkansas Tooth pick makes perfect sence, thank you Mike R for pointing that out as I hadnt had it explained that way before...

Even though they cause alot of disagreement and contention, and despite the Bowies convoluted and confusing history...especially when it comes to the Holy Grail as you call it, they sure are fun and interesting to make, own,carry,talk about,study, search for and hopefully stumble onto and find one day...
TCA

Just to clarify Black's background, he was an apprentice silverplater, not silversmith, back east befroe coming to Arkansas. He then hired on as a blacksmith in the employ of his future father-in-law in Washington, Ark. Where he learned to make knives and do the silverwork is unknown--perhaps self taught. I have had the priviledge of handling an original Black knife [the Ducros knife]and closely viewed several others in museums. I also know several Master Smith knifemakers who have copied the originals [and I have three Black style custom knives myself]--and they attest to how hard they are to make and how much skill was[is] involved. It was not long ago that some "experts" on Bowies denied even the existence of James Black, but he is now well-established as an historical figure. The Ark Territorial Museum in downtown Little Rock and the little museum in Berryville, Ark have Black knives on display. The Perkins Bowie is in the History Museum in Jackson, Miss. Some Searles Bowies are in the Alamo. Also in the LR museum is the Moore Bowie, once a leading claimant to be the Alamo knife and many other Bowies [the museum used to have a nice collection of Ark muzzleloading rifles but took them down and replaced them with a quilt display!]. Other contenders are scattered around. I started to collect Bowies [modern custom ones] but both them and the old ones are beyond my means now. But I do have a nice little collection that someday I may donate/loan to the Ark museum. I love Bowie knives [all knives, certified knife nut].

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!! One of you post some pics of prime Bowie Knives.

Back around 1970 there were surplus army Bowie
knives/bayonets. They had Rio Grand Bowie
stamped on them. Big knife (small sword), spear
point, 12" long, 1 3/4 " wide, 1/4 " thick.
It had a bayonet fixture with a scrolled guard.
Came with a hard ceramic like sheath. An attractive knife. I didn't have a $100 to spend
so I passed, sorry ever since.

There is a Spanish Knife popular in the South
called a Belduque. It resembles a big chef's
butcher knife in every way. A Long pointed trapazoid of a blade. Perhaps this is what Bowie used at Sandbar?