Mike,

I saw an original one of those HBC campknives at Gordon's. I can tell you that you probably won't need a camp ax if you have one, but you sure will need your pocket knife to do any fine work. Those things make cleavers look wimpy. The darned think looked almost 7/16" thick and had a 9-10" blade. It would certainly make a reasonable boat anchor, so don't fall in the creek while wearing one.

Sean

Sean, Aw,, I just want a little one. An eight inch blade would be fine. Shoot sharp, Mike

Hey Dan, Your story on the Hudson Bay Camp Knife in the Sept/Oct issue is a good one. That was the first story I read. Even so, and while it is off-topic (so if we discuss it, let's move to the Firearms "shelf"), the Hawken rifles were well documented at rendezvous, even mentioned by name. We can talk about the Russell knives too, they were there. Back to your story, again, I thank you. You spur me on to getting one of those knives and I'll put it to use. Shoot sharp's the word, Mike

Mike, Glad you liked the article. I can't say for sure about the Hawken at rondy though I have seen many discussions back and forth about the topic. But the Green River...James A Hanson, "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook", (among others), "The company was not started until 1834; it did not manufacture knives until 1841. Therefore, no "Green River" knife ever went to rendezvous." page 17. Who knows? That is why I used the word "questionable".

quote:

That is why I used the word "questionable".

Dan, Yes, the Russell company didn't get going until 1834 but I've heard of dates earlier than 1841 for their knives. Of course, I'm not trying to tell you that I was there. Even so, I do like the Green River knives. Good doin's on your story again. Shoot sharp, Mike

Nice article, Dan. I've always wanted to know just how early they made those things. I don't have a lot of HBC info, but think they are generally a robe trade item. I do think the Sublette and Campbell stamped knife is questionable, but I'd love to see the thing. I've seen a few of those camp knives in person, in print, and for sale on line and none of them were marked with importer or traders names, just the cutlers.

Mike... Hawken rifes in relatively small numbers but yes. I have citations of records of Hawkens going west in the 1828-30 period in the hands of UMO employees and a few going to Rendezvous as early as 1834 for sale... But Russell knives for rendezvous are a 'maybe' at best. I have not seen records of them going west at all during that period. The early ones do look a lot like English butcher knives, which were commonly ordered for the Western trade. So far I think the Russell's are still a robe trade item post rendezvous. At least the trade was dominated by English knives at that point.

Sean

I did a HB Camp knife article for Tactical Knives magazine a coupla years ago. Knife maker Dean Hazuka made a knife for the article and in the process did a great deal of research on the topic. I believe that we found out that camp knives were being traded as early as the late 1700's. Dean may still have that info.

Dan,

I'd be interested to see Dean's info on that. I'm sure there were a lot more differnt types of knives sold by the fur companies through the years than just butchers, scalpers and dags. I just saw a couple of nice examples of the New Mexican counter part of those big camp knives. They were what Charles Hanson referred to as a 'Cibolero cleaver' in his fur trade cultery sketchbook. 11-12" blades. One had nice horn slabs with a bird beak butt. It was obvious that they were occasionally used with a mallet or maybe a rock to split big bones. Both the Cibolero knives and the HBC camp knives would have been a fine tool to dismantle a bison out on the plains.

Sean

quote:

I did a HB Camp knife article for Tactical Knives magazine a coupla years ago. Knife maker Dean Hazuka made a knife for the article and in the process did a great deal of research on the topic. I believe that we found out that camp knives were being traded as early as the late 1700's. Dean may still have that info.

I saw that article and that's what got me fired up to get an HB knife. I got my first one from Dennis. It's a big knife but it'll still do those small jobs.

These knives have interested me for a long time, although I still don't own one.

Woodsmoke's post (above) mentioned the article in The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Vol.13, #3 (1977). This article called it a "Buffalo Knife."

Years ago, a buddy of mine, who owned one of these knives, sent me a detailed drawing of it. His had handle scales of water buffalo horn, which was evidently used on some of the "Chief's Grade" knives made in Britain for the fur trade. I did see another example that had a honey-colored horn handle. He said that the scales were typically held on with iron pins which passed through oversized brass (not copper) washers or burrs. The dark iron pin in the center of the brass burr looked like the pupil of an eye.

Bernard DeVoto mentioned the Indians' fondness for big knives in the back of his book, Across the Wide Missouri. Large knives were also discussed in a very interesting book entitled Piegan, by Richard Lancaster. These big "camp" knives were used not only for dismembering big game, but for digging rifle pits or "foxholes," and for chopping firewood and lopping the limbs off tree trunks for building war lodges and breastworks. In Piegan, the author tells that the elderly James White Calf gave him a very heavy knife which had been used by a man named Weasel Tail to kill a grizzly bear.

Anyway, good luck in your quest for a real Hudson Bay Camp knife. I think the less expensive "Hudson Bay knives" available from the various trading posts are too small and of dubious quality. The ones by Mike Mann and Dean Hazuka look great. The drawing in the online article from the Blacksmith's Gazette that was mentioned by SCLoyalist looks a lot like the one my buddy drew, if you can find a blacksmith to hammer one out for you to those dimensions.

Good luck!

Crooked River

Here is my copy made by Beaverman, Jim Smith...not sure how PC it is, but I sure do like it!

Here she is interpersed with a bunch of other stuff...

Mike and the rest of the gents. In regards to the Hudson Bay Knife, a supposedly original has just been listed on Ebay, and it looks pretty good!

"aim small, miss small"

The one with the beaded sheath? That's by Dean Hazuka alright. Shoot sharp, Mike

Hi Mike, I am sending you a private email with the link. I am not so sure we are talking about the same HB knife. This one does not have a beaded sheath.....

"aim small, miss small"

Roaring Bull,

The knife has lots of other stuff with it.

What's the holy turtle? The only thing I can think of would be as a bullet block. But I have neither seen one of leather, nor one as narrow as that appears.

I can only guess the ebony horn, with it's tow plug, is where you keep your fire starter? Or is that a real powder horn and I can't quite discern the plug? I see your pan charger (?) and a small horn that would be a priming horn if the other wasn't a pan charger.

And then there are the squirrel skewers...

Nice stuff.

Sparks

quote:

Originally posted by sparks:
Roaring Bull,

The knife has lots of other stuff with it.

What's the holy turtle? The only thing I can think of would be as a bullet block. But I have neither seen one of leather, nor one as narrow as that appears.

I can only guess the ebony horn, with it's tow plug, is where you keep your fire starter? Or is that a real powder horn and I can't quite discern the plug? I see your pan charger (?) and a small horn that would be a priming horn if the other wasn't a pan charger.

And then there are the squirrel skewers...

Nice stuff.

Sparks

Yessir the turtle is a .50 ball block! Made of leather by an excellent craftsman (not me)! Actually the horn is made of glass and belongs to the wife, a mother's day gift from me. No she has never used it for such, but loves the deep green color of the glass. Yep, that is an elk antler pan primer. Got the little horn for that but had to have that elk antler one to take hunting.

The skwirrel skewers are made by Wally Peters!

[IMG:top] [/IMG]

Here's an original S&J Kitchen Sheffield camp knife I have.It is typical of most of the real camp knives I have seen over the years. I see few reproductions that are very close.
If the article mentioned on Dean's knives was in Tactical Knives, I made the beaded sheath that was with them.

Here is the other recognized Hudson Bay type knife. This is a dag, made by Jukes Coulson & Co., Sheffield.
[IMG:top] [/IMG]

Hey Ric, I hope you'll show me your camp knife next May. Shoot sharp, Mike

quote:

The skwirrel skewers are made by Wally Peters!

OK, I give up. What are squirrel skewers? Never heard uv 'um before.