I have built-to-order knives of similar pattern, one 5.25-inch blade, one 6.2-inch blade. Is either appropriate for "period" wear -- 1750s and/or 1820s?

Both knives are users rather than wall hangers -- that is, "well used" and show it. I won't post their sheaths; these are completely utilitarian and obviously inappropriate for any period earlier than 1985. . . . which brings up, what sort of sheath would be appropriate for use as well as look and feel.

If I'm asking questions poorly or with inadequate information, ask for clarification and I'll do my best.

Here are thumbnail of [larger] blade.

LINKS DELETED. LINKS DELETED. LINKS DELETED.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Naphtali,

Got some strange, and very inappropriate pop-ups when I opened your pictures. Please remove them and correct this. Hope I didn't get any viruses or anything. Bad news.

To answer your question: No. Unless the period is 1980 or later.

quote:

Originally posted by Rifleman1776:
Got some strange, and very inappropriate pop-ups when I opened your pictures. Please remove them and correct this. Hope I didn't get any viruses or anything. Bad news. . . .

I sent you an E-mail with one attachment. Please reply to it to my E-mail.

Without logging into turbo image host I accessed two of the thumbnails (now deleted) and linked to the usual graphic-web site formatting. I should have seen what you see? But I didn't. I have my browsers set to suppress pop-ups and to suppress any graphic on a web page that does not originate on that web page. Perhaps this is the difference? Having written that, another forum reported to me the same problem you have. I've been using the host for about six months without any similar problems.

I E-mailed the turbo image hosting's web site administrator, quoting your reply, furnishing the same screen shot I sent you, and furnishing the complete text of my query. I hope someone finds the problem and solves it.

I also have a Photobucket account. I no longer use it for two reasons.
1. The web site has/had some bizarre virus problem.

2. I run Macintosh OS 9.2. None of my three browsers functions uneventfully anymore on Photobucket. And only one browser functions well enough to allow me to post graphics in forums. Jumping through hoops was too much hassle. So I moved to a graphics host that allows uneventful functioning -- until today.

Naphtali, Let me try to give you an answer to your question about knives that were probably carried during the time periods you mentioned. The common knives carried were what we'd call simple butcher knives. They were just the plain bladed knives with simple wooden slab grips and no finger guards. A 4 1/2 to 6 inch blade would be a good choice. In fact, the 4 1/2 inch bladed Green River of the butcher blade style is called the "Belt Knife." The sheaths those knives were fitted into were deep, taking the blade plus most of the handle. Attaching the sheath to a belt was often done by tying it in place, or with a single hole cut through the sheath for the belt to pass. In either case, the knife was worn on the inside of the belt, between the belt and the wearer's body, for additional hold and security. Nobody in those days wanted to lose their knife. Please forgive me for sending you such a general sounding reply but your question about knives and sheaths covers a whole lot of time and area. However, come back with more questions, for sure, and we'll try to get you on the right course. Shoot sharp's the word, Mike

Naphtali, I also have pop-up blockers but still got zapped from your pictures. Your e-mail has not arrived.

Naphtali,

I saw those knife pics on the other board, but didn't get the pop-ups. Guess I didn't look past the thumbnails. Maybe you should try google's picasa.

Far as the knives go, they look handy but you are unlikely to have seen etched Damascus or phenolic spacers on a period knife. You do occasionally see cast bolsters, although I can't recall seeing them like that on a period knife. It a pretty modern looking thing. Doubt anyone would kick you out of an event for it though.

Sean

Rifleman1776 check your SECUTITY setting,if it is low or turned off you will get undesirable sites.It's the adult monotoring setting built into most computers to protect from bad viewings.

For a look at some of the English knives from the 1800s, go to the website www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/ and look in the "miscellaneous" section. I have and use some of those knives and they are quite pleasing. You'll have to make your own sheath. And delivery from England is very fast, only about one week. Shoot sharp, Mike

Mike, I thought the guy was asking about 18th c. I saw nothing on that site but 19th. OK, I see now he mentioned up to 1820's, but even at that, I don't think any of those are all that correct for that early, but then I don't do much in the 19th c., and don't really know.

Hey Mike!
I ordered 5" & 6" butcher patterned knifes from Sheffield, very pleased with them.
I also found a Rigging Knife (pattern I've been looking for for a very long time) at a very reasonable price under their Seaman's Knives heading. There is a nice clip point and Green River style knife under that heading too.

WBE, I think those knives are correct, at least in profile, for the later 1700s. They'd be better if they were half-tangs but I'll guess that full-tang knives did exist. That goes for the skinning knife too. Folks have been skinning beef for years, you know.
Deercop, I also have those knives and the 5" is the one I made a belt sheath for. It's done some fine work for me. And, let me admit it, I like the way the blades are marked. Shoot sharp's the word, Mike

Per the 1750s knife...
I have always been intrigued by the knife ascribed a Boone provenance and once on display at the Filson Club...its also shown in the Bakless book about Boone....baasically its just a round lathe turned handle, a jambed tang , (maybe pinned too?), and a nondescript blade...alot of the early and frontier type blades were designated "shapeless" at one time too I think by modern collectors because they really fit no other established pattern...

Dont be afraid to search for Henkels kitchen type blades to make knives as described above...though they are out of business, the blades are still available on line...nice early patterns,hand forged, tapered rat tail tangs carbon steel...and usually pretty cheap.
Just a thought..
TCA

Mike,

My impression is that might be stretching it by about 20 years for the 5-6" butchers and maybe 35-40 for the 8", both discounting the full tang. The Sheffield scalper is probably and 1850s or 1860's pattern like the Jukes Colsen scalper shown in the Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook. I'll gladly recant if you have info on English butchers from the 1790s or earlier and would appreciate being directed to that info.

Sean

If I knew how to post photos on this board, I could show two English and one French. They are relic blades with no grips. I will give a try

Well, seems to have worked, and I found a picture I forgot I had. These are all 18th c. You will note that in general the English blades generaly have a raised point, while the French are generaly dropped. The English had thinner blades, and most often three small diameter pins, while the French favored a thicker blade of around 1/8", and two 1/8" pins, however variations are found for both. The English and French both often had but one size grip for all their trade knives, and the English even drilled their pins low in the tang to allow the pins to appear centered in the over sized grip on the smaller knives.photo credits to "pichou"

This message has been edited. Last edited by: WBE,

Hey WBE, Good picture and good doin's. Now, where does one find knives in those styles today? Shoot sharp, Mike

Mike there are a few good knifemakers doing these, including myself, but I believe some of those Sheffield blades could be carefully modified to be correct. One point I forgot to mention is that these are not only partial tanged, but the tangs are tapered to a near knife edge, and the blades will have a distal taper also. In many cases, slight, but yet tapered. I think most folks handy with tools could modify the blade shapes of some of those butchers, and rehandle them to be pretty correct. The taper in the blade would not be too necessary, but it would be good to have the tangs tapered, then slipped into a one piece grip via a narrow slot. They also always used iron pins.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: WBE,

WBE, I see that Slater's of England (http://slaterknives.co.uk/default.asp) still offers some half-tang knives with wooden handles. Some Green River Dadley shapes too. Shoot sharp's the word, Mike

Mike,

Interesting in terms of 19th century butchers, but I can't tell much from that web page. None of the model names are cross referenced with the photos. Where'd you get the info on them being half-tanged? I will say that the handle attachment I can see is not right for pre-1840. Brass cutlers rivets came in much later. Like Wick said, steel pins. The pattern varied, but was generally 3 pins on a scalper with a one-piece haft with a saw cut slat. Butchers on the other hand used slabs that were pinned on with 4-6 pins in a T or H pattern. But if you have an actual catalog from them I'd like to see it.

Wick's info via Pichou is right on for 18th century trade knives or sclapers. There's some line drawings of early 19th Century scalpers in the Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook and in Russell's book on mountain man gear. They are pretty simple knives and were often purchased in quantity either for use or for trade.

Another sort of knife we haven't touched on here is the case or cartouche knife. These are a simple European kitchen knife. Many had forged integral bolsters and full tangs. Handles were slabs of horn, wood, green bone, or "buck" and were pinned on. Some cartouche knives appear to have been specialized trade items like the horn and brass handle knife in the FTC Sketchbook.

All of the above knives were generally European imports, but there were also plenty of blacksmiths and cutlers turning out cutlery of various types in the new world for their own local markets.

Sean

ummm...then theres that Filson style knife with the round lathed handle...you almost never see new reproductions ones made like that...and the early rat tail tang blades by folks like Henkels that go into... round lathed handles...you rarely see those either...though I think they may have been fairly common?

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TCA