Here is something I've wondered about. I've read a number of stories about people going on a scout for the weekend, with nothing but a blanket, firelock, and a few accoutrements &c. From what I can determine, these are done in State or National Forests, as well as possibly private land or forestry company land maybe. They might be in the fall, with lots of legal game seasons, or maybe in a spring turkey season. But they might also be when there isn't any hunting season? So here are my questions:

If you are carrying a B.P. rifle or shotgun in the woods, isn't that evidence to a game warden of hunting? What if is isn't a hunting season? Are you legal?

Most peple appear to be fully dressed in period correct clothing. If it is legal hunting season, are you wearing hunter orange, if required?

I'm just curious as to how this trekking activity works - since you are carrying a firearm it seems like there might be special things to consider. How do people addess these issues?

Hey Roy,

In Iowa, coyote is open-season year round, so if asked, I'm always lookin' for coyote. I have had a very thourogh and friendly game warden ask to see my rifle out of curiosity, but really for the purpose of raising it to sight down it and sniff for burnt powder to check my story, (that I hadn't shot anything).

In Iowa you can also hunt some fur bearing critters when they are in season, if you have a fur trappin' license. I carry all my licenses and permits in my pouch so I can produce them for any authority.

I've never had any problem, even when I have inadvertently broken the law, (like the time I hacked the rack of an abandoned deer and proudly showed it to a game warder, [I didn't poach it]).

When on Federal and State lands in other states, I always check to see what the regulating authorities in those areas have to say about carrying loaded or unloaded weapons.

Will

check your state regs...I do wear hunter orange when required-cape on my hunting shirt,orange bandana,etc...here in CO, coyote season is year long and as far as I know, you can carry a firearm on public land and you don't have to be hunting...I went shooting last wknd with a friend,started at the public range(mistake),ended up "out in the woods" and we burned up a "bit" of powder/lead....I often just go "stump shooting" on public lands and the only hassles have been from non-shooters...

Hey John:

My first trek was 1983. I've trekked in several states and at different times of the year. Always try to follow the game laws of the state that you are in. I've never had any problem with game wardens, but I have rarely seen one when it wasn't hunting season. Usually, the place you are trekking and perhaps stump shooting is not convenient to a road, so very few folks will even know that you are shooting back there. The main point of possible contention is at the parking area either coming or going. There you basically have to hope that any enforcement officer you meet up with is friendly and sensible and perhaps has a love of history and an understanding of what you are doing with a flintlock in the woods when it's not hunting season.

Bill Scurlock

I've done some armed camping trips treks here in WA State and on one I met a game warden. He was interested in my gear and clothing on a personal level, but officially was totally uninterested. I asked why and he said that unless I had violated a hunting or fishing regulation, he didn't care, it was none of his concern and simply being armed while in the woods is no violation of Wa. law.

Three Hawks

In Arkansas, carrying a firearm in the woods must be coupled with other evidence to get a conviction of hunting out of season. OTPH, methinks where a trekker would go there wouldn't be game wardens. I doubt any of them ever get out of sight of their pick up trucks.

Trekking may be done in National Forests, and in some cases in National Parks. The two of course are not the same. For the parks, you need to call the rangers before you go to see what the park regulations are. State forests and or parks are the same. Call before you go.

Those that trek when not in hunting season, do not load their weapons. It's not a reenactment so no need to load. Fish & Wildlife Svs, or Park Rangers, would have to get you with a loaded firelock to charge you with hunting out of season. Dumping the prime isn't good enough; no charge or ball down the bore.

Some folks don't even take ball, but in the wilds, you might have to deal with a bear or a boar, hunting season or not. Plus, a National Forest is open to Bad Guys as easily as to "us", and carrying a firearm without ammo is just plain silly (imho). Just don't load for the trekk.

Any enforcement officer may charge you. They often work alone, or so spread out that it's his word against yours. The issue is what does the law say, and what will the judge say.

IF you are out in an area where hunting is legal, open to the public, or private land that you don't own/lease/rent..., you need to wear orange to stay alive AND to meet the law. I wear a bright orange knit cap, made in a Voyageur style, as a minimum. An orange scarf doesn't hurt. Some folks on this list wear a hood and shoulder garment in orange, and there are orange waistcoats, and hunting shirts.

If you have any further questions feel free to email me. I am LE in our state.

LD

quote:

target shooting, where legal,

Again, call about that. I know in most areas in MD, if it's hunting season, no target shooting, and in many of the parks no target shooting at all, even if they allow hunting. Mckee Bisher Wildlife Management area and the Patuxent River WMA are two that come to mind with target shooting prohibitions.

AS for enforcement..., they will observe you for a bit..., and if you are walking around and get stopped with a firearm or ML and say "Oh I was target shooting", you'd better have shot at a target, or have placed one. "I was just looking for a target when you stopped me," is going to be seen as an insult to the enforcement officer's brains, as the obvious reply would be "You should've waited to load until you had a target. See you in court. If the judge says so you can get your gun back then."

LD

Pilgrim!!! Ever hear of "PERMA FACIA EVIDENCE"(SP)means if your here and I say so You prove Difference.Some states,Maine, If your in the woods/vehicle/boat and have the ability to hunt and it's outside the law you get the ticket and your day in court.If I am in the woods on Sunday,no no in MAINE, and have a loaded weapon that is PFE of hunting,PERIOD.Now most times the DFW rep knows if you are or are not.Why push the issue, you be nice explain why/what/where and most officers are receptive,you be none cooperative and life just got tougher.
Aint got no critter in the bag,"you just havnt shot anything yet" but your hunting.I teach Hunter Safety AND good relations with LEO (LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS)The most dangerious job in the LEO is DFW,MOST OFTEN THAN NOT THEY COVER biggggggggggAREAS and most of the time nobody can pin point where they are. Hunting season they meet most people who are armed weapon in hand,DFW IN HOLSTER and way in the woods,with NO back up.So why would anyone want to be noncooperative.
Be NICER and more often than not you make a friend,explain your reason/dress and go on your way.
LEO isnt stupid and they do/will get out of their pick up truck.You never met our DFW rep,he will hunt you to the ends of the earth,fight the devil and walk through fire just to check your licence and if it isnt correct life goes bad in a hurry.Takes it real personal,like kicking his dog, if your breaking the law.
If your not going to shoot dont load,saves everyone the problem.
When in doubt ask LEO GREAT source of the law you ask it's free if they have to explain it the cost goes up,been my experiance.

Texas is a bit differant.If you aint observed shooting at game,Than your not breaking the law.The wardens around my neck of the woods are fairly easy to get along with as long as you dont act like an ass.Of course We also have a concealed carry law also

I've only had a few encounters with enforcement officers while hunting.

On one occasion I was hunting and returning to my partners pick up. As I approaced the pick up, an enforcment officer got out. It's a good thing because I'd have most likely crawled in beside him looking for my thermos of coffee. My partner had moved his truck and these guys, with a truck of the same color, parked in his place.

The officer asked to see my license and while fumbling in my pouch for my license, the officer asked if he could hold my rifle. I told him no and leaned it against a nearby stump. We were in a log off. Then he asked how much a rifle like mine cost. I didn't come out with a definitive answer either.

I looked at the situation this way, I wouldn't surrender my rifle to him. I also wasn't interested in telling him how much my rifle was worth. I never suppose that while being questioned by an officer, that his questions are pure personal interest. They are digging for information and if he beleives I'm being vague, so be it. My licesne and tags were in order.

I can't shake the feeling that they are quizzing me only for some small detail for which they can bust me. Beleive me, there are many small details that are easily missed in the game regs and these can become real land mine.

This isn't a hunting story but it certainly warrents telling:

A couple months back my son was leaving a red light that just turned green and was in the inside lane. A BMW tried to pass him but the outside lane stopped. The BMW tried to pass on the gravel shoulder and lost control and rolled. The driver didn't get hurt but that's beside the point. It's illegal to pass on the shoulder so it was the BMW driver's fault.

The witnesses behimd my son said that my son was speeding up and hit the BMW. Of course he was speeding up, he just left the light and was going from a dead stop to a 55 MPH speed zone. Anyway, the police told him to stay in his vehicle and not make any phone calls. He wasn't allowed to call home, call his insurance Co. or an attorney, had he had one. He was not allowed to get out of his vehicle to take photos for the insurance co.

The officer infored him that his vehicle was going to be impounded. After an hour and a half, my son finally got the officers attention and requested that they show him where his blue pick up collided with the black BMW. There wasn't a mark on his truck becasue he hadn't hit the other car, it only looked like he had to the motorists behind him.

I informed my son that I wished he had gotten the officers name, or badge no., and car license because I would have placed a formal complaint against that officer.

It's just this type of action that trains us to have that "he's just looking for some small detail for which to bust me" feeling. Keep in mind that many regulations are written in legelease and not easily understood. I've run into many that are up for interpretation and in cases like that, my interpretation is useally different from that of the officials. This is the case with most of our environmental laws.

Load fast and aim slow.

quote:

I informed my son that I wished he had gotten the officers name, or badge no., and car license because I would have placed a formal complaint against that officer.

This is digressing a bit, but why not get all the above off the ticket? The date, location, and the officer's name and ID number will be on the citation copy your son got. OH, he didn't get a ticket? Then the outcome of the officer's investigation, while not as quick as YOU wished, was still as it should've been..., your son wasn't found at fault.

Gee the officer took the uninvolved motorist's information above that of your son, cause gee folks who are in accidents never lie to the police and say they didn't hit the other guy. Officers are not required by the United States nor state's constitutions to inform every person instantly of all of their rights. The only rights that they are required to inform a person of is their right against self-incrimination under the 5th amendment, and only when the person is under arrest.., hence you have the right to remain silent. Traffic offenses are NOT criminal violations.

Other than that, it's a personal responsibility to know when you must comply with orders of law enforcement and when not. It's not the cop's fault that your son didn't use his cell phone after being told not to do so. Cops give orders that aren't obeyed, that don't end in arrest. Folks are ordered to leave their homes due to hurricanes, and say behind, for example.

Sounds to me like the cop had not been trained as an accident reconstruction investigator, so was under orders to impound vehicles for further examination when nasty accidents occur. Just because the BMW guy wasn't "hurt" on the scene doesn't stop him from having a wheel chair and civil attorney the following day. I'd say the cop cut your son a break, by not impounding the truck on the probable cause provided by the witness. The cop took a big chance on getting successfully sued by the BMW guy for making a "judgement" on the scene when he may not be "qualified" on paper to determine there was no evidence the witness was wrong and your son was right.

Let me ask you this, if the cop does get sued, are you going to chip in to pay some of the damage money to the BMW guy? So your son got held for 90 minutes, and the officer faces 36 months of risk for the decision he made at the scene. Sounds like the cop was slow but thorough to me.

LD

We now return you to the black powder era pre-1840

I dont know what part of the pacific north west you live in (Bering sea perhaps ??) but here in MT. if you have ANY questions about game laws, we have offices of fish n game dept. here with people in them that get paid to answer questions, and do a pretty good job of it... so....when in doubt.....ASK !!!

In SC if you want to trek on game land out of hunting season you cannot carry powder or ball with you. If the big game season is open you have to wear orange. You can get around this with a orange "do rag". If only small game season is in you can trek and hunt in period clothing. Other states may vary.

A friend of mine is a criminal defense lawyer. He has told me repeatedly that you answer a LEO's (that includes Game wardens.) questions in as few words as possible, and volunteer absolutely nothing. Do not attempt to explain anything. In other words:
Keep yo' big mouf shut !

Three Hawks

Got a"MY GRIPE" The word COP just pulls my panties into a bunch,puts sand in my grits,makes me grind my teeth and want to slap someone.It bothers me to!!!POLICE OFFICERS,LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS are not COP,PIG,BADGE ETC.RESPECT IT'S ALL ABOUT RESPECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree IF YOUR GUILTY OF SOMETHING,by all means feel obligated to ABUSE/USE/EXERCISE your 5th amendment right AND AS WF pointed out,SHUT UP,LEO will love you for it.
Criminal Defence isn't that an OXIE MORON,isnt that the LAWYER that tries to get the Criminal off and sue who ever he can????While defending the CRIMINAL or barganing for a lesser sentence AND VICTIMINIZING THE VICTIM AGAIN.!!!!!!!!
I'AM DONE!!!! now we return you to your regular programing,1840 and before.THEY ARE NOT COPS!!!!!
Anyone have an answer for Hunts4Deer??????

Respect has to be earned.

Civility is all I owe any gov't agent or employee. I've had leo's treat me civilly and I've had 'em treat me as if I'd already been tried and convicted. They are Human and fallible as we all are.

Memories fade, impressions differ and the description of an event by any two people can seem as if they'd been on different planets. So the less you say, the less chance of it being misconstrued or misremembered.

If anyone here is ever arrested and charged, I hope you find a competent attorney, because believe me some prosecutor is going to do his dead level best to convict you, guilty or not. He has almost unlimited resources and the Majesty of the State on his side and the only thing standing between you and prison or ruin is a skilled lawyer.

If someone thinks that keeping one's mouth shut is tantamount to disrespect or admission of guilt, I refer them to the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution guaranteeing the right not to be forced to testify against yourself. Is it subject to abuse? Sure it is, so what? Is a leo's faulty memory, careless or malicious manipulation of the account of an event possible? Absolutely. Thus the admonition to Keep Yo' Blabber Mouf Shut.

If you just have to talk, talk about the weather, car engines, or basketball scores, anything other than what the co.....officer wants to talk about. The best thing, though is just keep your mouth shut.

As a matter of fact, writing down your version of events as soon as possible in as complete and accurate detail as possible could save your fanny. It did mine. Names, dates, times, badge numbers, license plate numbers, anything and everything, no detail is too insignificant. And that is bought experience.

Three Hawks

quote:

Originally posted by r aldridge:
I dont know what part of the pacific north west you live in (Bering sea perhaps ??) but here in MT. if you have ANY questions about game laws, we have offices of fish n game dept. here with people in them that get paid to answer questions, and do a pretty good job of it... so....when in doubt.....ASK !!!

Same here in Washington State. I asked a question over the phone recently. Luckily, I wrote down the answer the nice lady at the Game Department gave me. It was dead flat wrong.

luckily the Game Warden let me go with a warning. Part of that warning was that it didn't matter if Christ Jesus told me in person, it was still my responsibility to obey the actual law. What had happened was that the regulations had changed two years before, and the "Nice Lady" at the Wa. Dept. of Fish and Game either hadn't gotten or hadn't read the memo.

Get it in writing. Even then you're responsible. Seems that State Employees are not accountable for the drivel they spout. It could be accurate or it could be freshly pulled out of someone's hiney. You're still screwed. And they're still not accountable.

Three Hawks

I carry a game law book with me,hunting/fishing.It list the Wardens and if I have a question I call or stop by.
I always start out civil and if the other person takes off in the wrong direction I just ask them,"If I talked to you as you are talking to me where would this go?"
Traveled all over the world and some of the US and in 62yrs.cant remember when being nice wasnt catching,even when I needed an interperter.
If their having a bad day and you are having a good one,share your's with them.

Getting back to the original question, it depends on the laws of the particular state one is trekkng in.

I some states, simply carrying a gun not in hunting season is paramount to poaching. In others, it is only carrying a gun.

In MO, for example, one can carry a gun any time, nearly any place, on public land, even without a hunting license, and not be considered hunting... and not be cited. However, if a game warden is encountered, it helps to have a target with holes in it to show that one was "target shooting", otherwise a long search and questioning can ensue. The questioning and search may ensue anyway, but at least one has the target to suggest that target shooting was the reason for a fired gun.

And as mentioned, respect goes a loooonnnngg way toward avoiding a citation.

God bless