I'm curious about this. I have Mark Bakers dvd's, the Longhunter series, and I really like them and learn a lot from it. He doesn't use 4f powder to prime, he just uses 2f(I presume) from his regular horn to shoot. I tried this, It works, but the ignition is very slow. Also, I tried it with 3f and it was just as slow. Marks ignition is almost instant. Am I doing something wrong, or is it my gun? I have good quick ignition with 4f powder. I can sure see the advantage of not having to carry a priming horn and a different type of powder. Anyone out there have any thoughts on this?

Sawbones,
I forget--what gun are you shooting?
2F will be a tad slower than either 3F or 4F. But it's important not to cover the flash hole with any powder from the pan--it is the heat of the flash that ignites what's in the barrel, not burning powder flying through that tiny hole. So experiment with different amounts of powder in the pan, prick the flash hole every time, keep the flint sharp and not too dirty, etc. I use 4F most of the time, and the main disadvantage to it aside from carrying a priming horn (which is cute, after all...) is that it absorbs moisture faster than the other powders. But it often ignites faster simply because it's smaller!

Dick

I use 3f for everything and all calibers-never noticed any difference in ignition from 4f-you're probably using WAY too much prime if you're having noticeable delays...

Thanks for the help guys. Yes, I bet I have been putting to much powder in the pan. I do pick the vent every time, and try not to cover up the hole. It is the same though with both guns, the brown bess and the blue ridge. I have tried 2f in each and it is still delayed, and not just a little delayed either. I have been filling the pan about half full, I bet that's way to much isn't it. I'm gonna try this weekend, with the new gun coming, to get the pan priming tuned right. Like Dick said, I actually like the priming horn, and with 4f I have no problems. I will use a smaller amount though. Should I put it as close to the touch hole as I can without covering it up? Thanks again guys

Lately I have gone to priming with 4f from 3F. Once fired, the black absorbs water like crazy; it seems 4f is particularly good at absorbing that moisture...my guess is because it has more surface area being smaller. I'll now wipe the pan between shots if I am hunting. Also, I have begun using a pan charger. Even though it just throws 3 grains, it looks like twice as much as I want. I'll typically dump some of that out until I can tell how to make the charger charge less.

Sparks

Sparks,
Don't throw it away. Fill the charger spout on your priming piece and then pour into the pan just the amount you want. Then turn the spout up and open the valve and let the excess fall back into the charging piece's reservour. Back in 1978, it took me a while to figure this out.
volatpluvia

Volie,
Sounds like a plan.

But this is one of those push-the-nose-in-the-pan-and-it-dumps-3-grains deals. I need to look and see if I can put something in the charger so it only measures out 1 or 2 grains. Maybe some brewers pitch or epoxy.
Anyone else modified one of these types?
Sparks

Sparks,
Just try depressing the plunger against your finger, then opening your finger in the pan (I mean so that the priming drops into the pan) and use what you want. Then hold the horn upright, push the plunger again, and it drops back. If we're thinking of the same kind of mechanism.
And I'm not sure, but I've heard that 4f powder is not coated with graphite, but 3f, 2f and 1f are. In addition to exposed surface area, this makes them less susceptible to moisture than the 4f. I don't know if this is so--"I've heerd tell."

Sawbones,
Each pan or each lock seems to like its own amount of priming powder. My large Siler seems to want more, and my L&R Dickert seems to like less. If you have one of those spring-loaded priming nozzles like Sparks is talking about, just use one good dose from that, prick the vent, and give it a try. Use more if that doesn't set off the charge.
Part of it is getting used to flintlock ignitions, of course, which seem slower than percussion. Good ones really aren't slower by very dang much--micro-fractions of a second--but because the cock is hitting the hammer (or frizzen) right in front of our eyes, the process registers as being slower.
On the other hand, if it's "hanging fire" then it's probably a case of too much powder in the pan--and your flint might be dull or a bit loose. If the lock does not throw a decent shower of sparks into the pan, then knap your flint or check the hardness of the hammer (frizzen).

Dick

Thanks Dick. I was having hang fires, and now I see why. I didn't understand that I was making a fuse with my powder. This weekend, I'm gonna work on that. I have a good priming horn and I will just use one dose. I have been using three, four, sometimes even five doses. I also have been setting it right in front of the touch hole. I would pick the vent and then tip the gun so the priming powder would run into the vent! From what you and everyone else has said, I was doing it all wrong. This forum is a big help. Thanks again

I have good luck with 4F but just fill the pan 1/3 full all the way to the far side of the pan. I carry it tilted to the right to keep it there.The flash must jump and not work like a fuse. Roaddog

I've been using 3Fg for both main and priming charges, on bess, Blue Ridge, and now on my PA Mountain Rifle. Works very fast. (When I shoot live with the bess I use 2Fg).

There are so many things that effect flinters, it's really tough to know what's going on. If you have the problem with two very different guns, that narrows down the possibilities, but only a tad.

Is the flint striking high enough on the frizzen in both guns to ensure a good, quick shower of sparks, or are you getting a smaller spark at the base of the frizzen?

Have you tried flipping the flint over?

Is the flint in the bess held with a piece of lead?

Is the flint in the rifle held with a piece of leather, but has the back edge of the flint resting on the metal of the jaw-screw?

Is the cock (sometimes called the "hammer") scraping anything as it strikes, like a piece of the stock or the side of the lock.

Is the metal of the tumbler where the lock touches the tumbler smooth? How about the metal piece that holds the tumbler in place, is it smooth? While you have the lock open, does the main spring move across a smooth surface on the interior of the lock plate? Do any of the lock screws protrude inward to slow the mainspring. Do any of the lock screws protrude outward and hinder the cock?

Is there any wood rubbing against the main spring or any other moving parts, when the lock is installed on the stock? (A common problem for BOTH the Pedersoli Bess/Charleville, and the Blue Ridge)

Is the hole in the Blue Ridge open enough? When was the last time you scrubbed the patent breech with a .22 bristle brush? (Another common problem with the Blue ridge).

Does the cam on the frizzen and the bearing surface on the frizzen spring need polishing?

Are the touch holes properly aligned with the pan, or are they too low (a common problem with the Pedersoli Bess)

You may have to find somebody who really knows locks to find the problem. Luckily, most of them are simple to fix.

LD

Hey Dave, Is the flint pointing into the pan when it's all the way down? Or, it's helpful to have the touchole the right size. Is the frizzen the right hardness? Is the flint sharp? On the subject of the Blue-Ridge rifles, the is an article in Jan.-Feb. issue of Muzzleloader mag. about what one man did to his rifle to make it more dependable going off.

Sawbones, I tip my rifle too, but I tip it away from the touch hole!

Shadow Lurken

Sawbones,
LD brings up an excellent point (Well, they were all good...) about the location of the flashhole. It should be placed centered over the pan, with the hole even with the top of the pan or even very very slightly over that. If it sits too low, it is very hard to insure quick ignition, as the priming powder is indeed fusing and covering the hole, too.
Architecture problems like that are fixable, but first simply experiment with smaller doses of priming powder, and work it up to what works best but no more than that.
Darn! You'll have to go shooting again!

Dick

Dick,
Thanks for the tip. I was looking at the charger primer the other day and it seems if I shorten the primer tube (just a snip of the wire cutters and making sure the tube doesn't stay mashed shut) could lessen the throw. But at the risk of ruining the thing, I'll try your method instead.

Anyone else try snipping this piece (business end of the primer)? If so, what kind of results did you get?

Sparks

Why is everybody trying to get less and less prime in the pan?

As long as the prime doesn't cover the vent, all is well. I've never thought about how littel to put in the pan. As long as the rifle goes boom, there was enough prime. The size of the pan is a big factor. My pedersoli and trade gun have pans made lick wheel borrows. They hold lots of prime and it has always appeared to me that lots of prime helps those two firearms to go boom. They both have quite a distance for the prime blast to travel in their ample vents. Why would I not fill the wheel borrow size pan if that is what makes those two guns go boom consistantly? As far as prime goes, in my opinion, the more the merrier.

One thing I've noticed is that prime powder doesn't have to be right at or should I say below the vent. It can be out away from the barrel as long as the pan is about 1/3 full. Please don't ask how much 1/3 is because that depends on the size of the pan.

I have several rocklocks that I seldom pick. That is, insert the vent pick to assure the prime will ignite the charge. On the other hand, I almost always pick the Pedersoli and the trade gun while priming them in preperation for a shot.
Load fast and aim slow.

White Finger,
You're right, of course. As I said before, my large Siler likes a good bit more priming than my L&R Dickert, and they're both approximately the same size. What I'm getting at is Sawbones may have been using so much prime that he was blocking the vent (or the vent may be low enough in relation to the pan that it gets covered easily) and so a solution is to start using less.
Sawbones, don't bother to saw anything off, just experiment with things in the pan--amount of powder, spark, etc.

Dick

Sparks,
I would turn the spout down on my index finger and push. when the spout was full I released it and then turned it spout up. The I dumped as much into the pan as I needed. Then I turned the spout up again and pressed with index finger allowing the leftover powder all back into the primer bottle. Can you picture this?
volatpluvia

Volie,
Clear as day, thanks.
Sparks

Howdy group. Well this weekend I worked on priming the pan right and it realy made a difference. I put a very small amount in the pan, and put it right in the middle, not up against the touch hole, and it ignited quickly. I also had a buddy snap some high speed pictures during this. I got one of them right before the pan powder started to smoke, you can see the bright orange flash filling up the pan and covering the touch hole just like it is supposed to. Thanks for all the advice guys.