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Factor
posted
Good Morning folks...,

On other threads, and in discussions at historic sites, etc. it had been noted that the use of "char cloth" for flint-n-steel fire making was not "documented" in the 18th century or before..., so far as we know,... for translations of works and obscure records come to light every year and this position may change... but back to the point of the post.

So some argue that using cloth for such an activity would have been very expensive, and thus the reason why one doesn't find the use of cloth to make char, and the lack of such being mentioned for fire making is due to this..., so something else must be used to replicate how-it-was-done when it comes to fire-making.

Folks point to the use of tinder fungus instead of char cloth. This is a good argument and solution, and the fact that Ötzi, the copper-age mummy found in the Alps, carried a form of tinder-fungus is wonderful support for this being a well known technique by the time written records began..., let alone the Colonial American period.

Then a fellow on another forum named Swedish Mike found an obscure formula in an old cook book and homemaking manual. In the 1760 version of The House-keeper's Pocket-book, and Compleat Family Cook by Sarrah Harrison, she writes thus:

To Make Tinder
Take three Ounces of Salt-petre, put it into a Pint and a half of fair Water, set it on a Fire in a Kettle or Pan to heat till the Salt-petre be dissolved ; then take a quire of smooth brown Paper, and put them in Sheet by Sheet into the hot Water till they are wet through, and then lay them on a clean Floor or Grass to dry. You may at any Time tear a Piece off, and put it in your Tinderbox ; it will catch like Wild-fire. By this Means you may save all your Linen Rags...,


So what she is doing is making weak "flash paper", or something akin to a paper "slow match". What is interesting is she mentions saving the linen rags, so cloth was being used to start fires as tinder prior to 1760.

The next question is this..., did they char the linen prior to her published recommended method, OR were they treating the linen rags in a similar manner, and she is merely recommending using the same method... but using paper instead of the cloth? It would make sense that since slow match was known for more than the past two centuries, that nitrated cloth might be a preferred option to the tinder-fungus.

So it seems that the use of cloth for some sort of tinder is now "documented", though turning it into "char" may remain a more recent procedure.

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of SCLoyalist
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Which brings to mind the technique of taking a piece of cloth, dampening it with spit or water, then sprinkling a little gunpowder on it, rubbing the powder into the damp cloth until the cloth was dark grey/black. I tried it once with a cotton cleaning patch, and was able to catch a spark without the patch being fully dry.

I wonder if you could take leaves or grass instead of cloth/paper and do something similar?

P.S. just tried the damp cloth experiment again, and it worked using flint and steel, but I sure wouldn't have won any fire-starting competitions with my time. I got much quicker results putting the damp/powder impregnated patch in the pan of a pistol, sprinkling a pinch of powder in the middle and pulling the trigger. Got a whoosh and a 1.5" diameter patch that was glowing at the edges and that could be rolled up and used like a tinder tube. That may mainly prove that black powder burns (Duh!) but also that you don't need something prepared in advance to get heat to start a fire. Anyway, thanks L.D. for starting the thread.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SCLoyalist,


Here's a health to the King and a lasting Peace. May Faction end and Wealth increase....Old Loyalist Ballad
 
Posts: 767 | Location: Panhandle Florida | Registered: 02 February 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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SC yes you can use grass and leaves I have done it many times and a dry as it gets here in the south around harvest time there is plenty of in the fields and it will burst into flames faster than hemp or tow linen.
 
Posts: 86 | Location: North central Alabama, Limestone County, Athens | Registered: 09 August 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of GreyWolf
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in 1828 Webster says:
TIND''ER, n. Something very inflammable used for kindling fire from a spark; as scorched linen.
http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?r...Webster%27s&word=t...

The Swiss family Robinson: or, Adventures of a father and mother ... - Page 296 Johann David Wyss, Johann Rudolf Wyss - 1818
"We might make tinder by burning: some linen rag, and putting it in & close box.."


aka Chuck Burrows
 
Posts: 616 | Location: Southern Rockies | Registered: 03 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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Thanks Greywolf I for one keep forgetting that novels written during period times are a good source of imformation plus good reading also.
 
Posts: 86 | Location: North central Alabama, Limestone County, Athens | Registered: 09 August 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Josh Crain
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I've heard that charred punk wood will catch sparks. I've tried it, but could never get the sparks to catch. If you light it with a match it works, but not otherwise. Big Grin Would the fact that I'm using punky birch wood have anything to do with it.

Chuck: I'm gonna review The Leather Stocking Tales to see if there's any good info in there.
~Josh


"Return unto me, and I will return unto you," saith the Lord of hosts.
~Malachi 3:7b
 
Posts: 297 | Location: MI | Registered: 18 August 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
Picture of Laughing Bear
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I've been able to catch sparks using an old piece of charcoal I found in a fire-ring. I'd run out of char-cloth but still wanted to start my fire with my flint & steel. It worked.

Just shows ta go ya...Char-cloth is easy (assuming I made it properly...never a safe assumption), but not the only option.

In any case...those "old timers" would have had access to and knowledge of things like fire drills, which require no char at all to get a spark.

And that's all I have to say about that.
 
Posts: 61 | Location: Edmonton, Alberta | Registered: 16 March 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Notchy Bob
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Thanks, Dave and Chuck, for the references.

Just a few additional thoughts on the char cloth...

We like to think of our forebears as rugged frontiersmen, wearing buckskins and wandering alone in the wilderness, but the majority of the population, even in colonial times, lived in the settlements, and most people wore clothes made of fabric. Even the Indians traded for woven goods and started using various types of fabrics for clothing and so forth, and (Natty Bumppo notwithstanding) cloth was generally used for patching rifle balls. The point being that scraps of fabric and worn-out articles of clothing should not have been that hard to come by for making char cloth. The other thing is that it does not take much char cloth to start a fire, if you have decent tinder and your striker and flint throw good sparks.

They also had tinder tubes, like this one from Track of the Wolf.

The reference to nitred paper was interesting.

Notchy Bob


"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us. Should have rode horses. Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife
 
Posts: 333 | Location: Florida | Registered: 24 May 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Josh,
I have started a number of fires with flint and steel using charred punk wood. In my case, it was Lombardi Poplar, so I think your birch would work just dandy. In my case the neighbor cut down the tree and I was helping him load it into a truck to be hauled off. I grabbed a big round and when I went to lift a piece broke off in my hand. It was spongy rotten so I took it home and charred it. It seems charred punk wood absorbs moisture a bit faster than cloth...so you might need to 're-char' it briefly to drive off the excess moisture. Of course, that doesn't help much if you are trying to build a fire with it. I have charred the inner bark of cottonwood and that works just fine.


"I thought when you said you chased tornadoes, it was just a metaphor."
--soon to be ex-fiance in Twister
 
Posts: 247 | Location: Boise | Registered: 12 November 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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These are great documentation that is coming to light and it is very much appreciated...thanks for sharing LD and Greywolf.

Here is some food for thought.

Tinder boxes used to be made of wood. Sparks would be struck directly into the tinder box. Then a piece of tinder with a live spark would be removed from the box to start the fire, and the wooden lid would be put back on the tinder box, to smother any remaining fire. While being smothered, the burning material in the tinder box would make a bit of char. That would make it easier to catch a spark next time...

...and eventually the tinder box itself would be consumed.

Sparks


"I thought when you said you chased tornadoes, it was just a metaphor."
--soon to be ex-fiance in Twister
 
Posts: 247 | Location: Boise | Registered: 12 November 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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So, I looked up quire and found it means 24 or 25 sheets of paper of similar size and quality. It is also defined as "one-twentieth of a ream." For the heck of it, I looked up a ream. Lo and behold, the definition of a ream is "twenty quires." A ream can be 480, 500 or 516 sheets of paper, but is kinda standardized to just "500 sheets."

Sparks


"I thought when you said you chased tornadoes, it was just a metaphor."
--soon to be ex-fiance in Twister
 
Posts: 247 | Location: Boise | Registered: 12 November 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Lads - Good post, good info on the paper slow match.

My normal "char" is charred punk wood from a Hawaii hardwood tree. If I can bust off a chunk with my bare hands, it is rotten enough. Cook it up just like char cloth. I carry mine in a tin container and strike the spark directly into that. With a decent spark this stuff grabs it easily and holds the spark an amazingly long time. When I got one piece going I take it out and put it with the tinder, and close the tin container, snuffing any other sparks.

Works great every time and the rotten wood is easily found. After I get it I will put it behind the wood stove to dry out before I bust it up into pieces (about the size of a quarter) and cook it.

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Josh Crain
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I guess you could say that this is an old topic.

I've always used charred cloth, but I know it supposed to not be "period correct." I've heard of all sorts of stuff that can be used for char material: Punky wood, deer droppings, chared inner bark of cotton wood trees, even some kinda mushroom. I've tried both cottonwood bark, and charred punk wood, but I've only gotten the punk wood to take when I used a match. Big Grin (Definetley not period correct!)

Does it matter what kinda tree I use? I used punky paper-birch.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Josh Crain,
 
Posts: 297 | Location: MI | Registered: 18 August 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Has anyone ever tried this 'salt-petre' recipe to make tinder? If so, how was it?
Sparks


"I thought when you said you chased tornadoes, it was just a metaphor."
--soon to be ex-fiance in Twister
 
Posts: 247 | Location: Boise | Registered: 12 November 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Josh Crain
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Crain:
I guess you could say that this is an old topic.

I've always used charred cloth, but I know it supposed to not be "period correct." I've heard of all sorts of stuff that can be used for char material: Punky wood, deer droppings, chared inner bark of cotton wood trees, even some kinda mushroom. I've tried both cottonwood bark, and charred punk wood, but I've only gotten the punk wood to take when I used a match. Big Grin (Definetley not period correct!)

Does it matter what kinda tree I use? I used punky paper-birch.


Hey, Sparks. I didn't realize you'd already answered my querry earlier, so I posted it again. Oops. Where do you get salt peter?

~Josh


"Return unto me, and I will return unto you," saith the Lord of hosts.
~Malachi 3:7b
 
Posts: 297 | Location: MI | Registered: 18 August 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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We got ours at "Duda Diesel Alternative Energy and Chemicals."
http://www.dudadiesel.com/sear...potassium+nitrate%22

Having heard no one say if they tried using this stuff before, I may have to just follow the recipe LD provided.

There is also some stump killer around that is potassium nitrate, but if I remember right it's more expensive than this stuff.

Sparks


"I thought when you said you chased tornadoes, it was just a metaphor."
--soon to be ex-fiance in Twister
 
Posts: 247 | Location: Boise | Registered: 12 November 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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I think I see a fly in the ointment...
On my bag of potassium nitrate it says "Oxidizer: Keep away from reducing agents and flammable liquids. Seems like it might rust whatever tin you have it in...

The warning label says: "Oxidizer. Contact with combustible material will not cause spontaneous ignition. However,
substance will enhance an existing fire (Class 1 oxidizer according to NFPA)."

Of course, if it didn't do that we wouldn't be interested in trying it for this purpose. Still, I wonder how it reacts with my tinder box...Incidentally Oxygen is also an oxidizer.
Sparks

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sparks,


"I thought when you said you chased tornadoes, it was just a metaphor."
--soon to be ex-fiance in Twister
 
Posts: 247 | Location: Boise | Registered: 12 November 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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