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Trekking Ladles
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Booshway
Picture of Night Owl
posted
Was wondering if anyone out there can shed some light on the subject of those little trekking ladles. I've casted lead roundball and bullets of all shapes and sizes for almost 25 years, always using an electric lead pot and modern tools. I thought the trekking ladle procedure would be a fun PC attempt at casting, but it now has me confused. Roll Eyes

I recently acquired one of the little "trekking ladles" to carry in the shooting bag...the kind you attach to a green stick and use over the fire. I have made three separate attempts at casting round ball with my bag mold over an open fire, and each has been a true test of patience to say the least. Last night was my most recent attempt, and after over an hour of screwing around, I only had three round balls, (if you want to call them that), which would have been capable of being used as a projectile. They were none too pretty!

The difficulty lies in trying to keep the lead in the ladle at the proper temperature, while also avoiding spilling any more than you have to onto the ground. After casting one .595 round ball, there is barely enough lead left in the ladle to pour a second. The process starts over again at trying to melt a new piece of lead, all the while trying to keep the mold from cooling down. I never thought this would be as precise as casting at the bench, but it doesn't even come close to being worth the effort. The round ball quality I did end up with was hidious to say the least.

I did pick up a small cast iron pot with a bail on it for setting in the hot coals a while back, and when I tried this method using the ladle to dip out of the five pound lead pot, things worked much like they do at the casting bench. The difference here being the several extra pounds of molten lead at a somewhat steady temperature, which is not possible when using just the ladle by itself. Using the trekking ladle as just a ladle and not also as a small melting pot seems to work much better.

My question is there anyone out there doing it the way we see it typically depicted in movies where someone melts one piece at a time and gets a nice uniform ball. My guess is this is probably not the case. One certainly can not carry a small cast iron pot with four to five pounds of extra lead in their shooting bag while out on the trail. This would make the casting process easier and doable, but the weight would be prohibitive if one were only on foot.

Thanks!
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan | Registered: 03 June 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Sage Rider
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Night Owl, I have had very good success casting with your type of set up. I just make sure the mold(mould) is plenty warm, producing nice uniform round balls. I am using a Callahan mould, and a glove!!! Hope that helps. I just use the ladle, place small amounts of lead in it and heat it till the lead is melted then pour into the heated mould!


"Don't Retreat, just reload"
 
Posts: 411 | Location: Oregon Territory | Registered: 26 February 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Dick
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Oh, I thought this was about "trekking ladies!" Eeker

Dick


"Est Deus in Nobis"
 
Posts: 2902 | Location: Helena, Montana | Registered: 10 December 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hivernant
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quote:
Originally posted by Dick:
Oh, I thought this was about "trekking ladies!" Eeker
Dick

Don't feel bad, I thought the same thing too and had to read it twice. Red Face
 
Posts: 111 | Location: Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Free Trapper
Picture of Montour
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Couple things to keep in mind:

The first being that the "Trekking Ladle" is as far as I know, a late 20th Century invention. I would love for someone to show me a documented artifact of this type from the 18th Century, but its not happened yet.

What is funny, if it really wasnt sad, is to do a google image search of "18th Century Lead Ladle" and you will find pages and pages of images of these trekker ladles, and only one image of an actual 18th century ladle, and it looks nothing like what vendors are selling and folks are carrying.

These ladles, as well as many other products that vendors are making, and we are buying spring out of trekking movement that took mid to late 18th Century horseback based longhunting and turned it into late 20th Century ultralight backpacking with an old tyme slant.......

So with that rant out of the way, here is what Dodderidge said about how hunters were equiped:

“Two or three horses furnished with pack saddles were loaded with flour, indian meal, blankets and everything else requisite for the use of the hunter”

When you have horses with packsaddles, then you can carry full sized kettles for the entire party to cook with, not totally made up individual trekker pots, and you can carry a lead ladle like what was used in the period like this one:

http://www.nps.gov/museum/exhi...rrimg/shotladle.html

One place to look for information on what real "Traveling" lead ladles looked like is to look at artillery equipment of the period, as when on campaign the Artillery was tasked with preparing the fixed ammo for the Infantry......
 
Posts: 150 | Location: Right where Im standing | Registered: 07 September 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Dick
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You are so right, Montour.
I think this modern interpretation of "long-hunting" treks (a late 19th century Boer word) has to do with the fact that most of us don't own a horse, and don't want to own one, knowing that we would need to feed, care for, train, and use said animal. So someone invented this way of dealing with that. And retailing has something to do with it, too.
Dick


"Est Deus in Nobis"
 
Posts: 2902 | Location: Helena, Montana | Registered: 10 December 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Night Owl
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The picture of that pot/ladle combo looks similar to the set up I ended up using, just with the ladle being separate. I'm sure that would be the best thing to use back then providing you had a four legged animal to help carry it.

My guess is back then they wouldn't have wanted to bother "casting" ammo when traveling light on foot, in enemy territory, etc. It makes sense to do that task prior to setting out a field. I may be wrong though.

Comparing how we do things today, I haven't met anyone yet out on a long hunt or excursion with a firearm that is also carrying a hand loading press and all the loose components such as bullets, primers and brass casings to sit and re-load cartridges in the field. They simply carry the amount of finished ammo cartridges they feel necessary to complete the hunt/task at hand. Some more than others! Big Grin

I've seen some re-enactors carrying around a couple of pounds of bar lead in their shooting bags, "in case they have to cast more round ball while out on the trail." Wouldn't it have made more sense for them back in the day to have cast what they needed in the settlements before setting out?

Why tote around the extra weight of the lead bars if they are not in the form of what you ultimately need in a pinch...which is round ball? Just my take on things. Eeker
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan | Registered: 03 June 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Free Trapper
Picture of Montour
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"Though we drew our loads every morning, from a fear of the dampness of the atmosphere, yet the ball and powder were never lost. Our bullet screws brought the first out with ease, and it was recast—the latter was carefully returned to the horn, where, if moist, it soon became dry."

This is JJ Henry's account of the PA Riflemen heading to Quebec.

So if you are pulling out a bullet, and then recasting it, instead of ladles & Bar led, having small bits of lead, like say cut off sprues would be all you really would need, to make up for any loss of volume from the bullet screw, as you put the ball back in the mould, drop a cut off sprue piece on top of the mould and set it in the fire to heat up and recast itself......

I know, this is radical thinking Big Grin
 
Posts: 150 | Location: Right where Im standing | Registered: 07 September 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hivernant
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shouldn't have to worry about loss due to the bullet screw. That is a forming process.

Only reason I can see for melting on the trail would be to reuse lead recovered from game. Or if you really smart leader made the powder containers out of lead.

And why does an l look so much like an i when I don't have my glasses on? Big Grin


anything worth shooting is worth shooting once.
 
Posts: 126 | Location: Demokratik Republik of Washington | Registered: 29 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of roundball
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And as a side note on the issue of having a large "hollow point" on a ball after pulling it with a ball puller.

I always pull my loads when I get back to the house after a hunt...25-35 times each fall, and I always save the patches & balls for use at the range.

I load the "hollow point" balls in a "spru up" fashion and to my pleasant surprise found that they all fly right into the 50yd bullseyes as reliably as a brand new Hornady or cast ball.


Flintlock Rifles & Smoothbores
Hunt Like The Settlers
 
Posts: 1867 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 28 January 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
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For a weekend outing or even one for a few days - nowadays or in the 18th century - it only makes sense to carry any lead in the form of pre-cast ball. If a trip of weeks or longer is undertaken it still makes sense to carry as much pre-cast ball as practical. However, in addition to this, pig lead, supplies, food, etc, are best carried by horse or mule as it is impossible for humans to pack all this on their own. In such a situation the ability to cast more ball becomes important.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3559 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Night Owl
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Makes the most sense to me...why carry around the lead bars and the additional weight of casting supplies such as ladles, when one can just carry the finished product which is the round ball.

Obviously if one had the use of a horse or mule to carry the weight of these "extra" items then it would make more sense.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan | Registered: 03 June 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Free Trapper
Picture of Montour
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Gotta put aside the weight issue. Economics is the key. Bar lead is cheaper than ball, and if your toteing a rifle, you might not be able to get off the rack ball for your weapon. Most folks would have a mould for their gun, and every person does not need a ladle. One per mess if your military or one per hunting party allows you the most versitility.......
 
Posts: 150 | Location: Right where Im standing | Registered: 07 September 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Night Owl
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Right...I'm just saying the practice of carrying around bar lead, trekking ladle, etc. in a shooting bag while on foot seems a bit much if your trying to move fast, cut down on weight, etc.

I'm sure it was very rare back in the day for someone to purchase/obtain the right size ball right off the shelf from a trader of some sorts. Something we in this day and age take for granted.

They certainly would have been buying bar lead, recovering spent rounds, obtaining scraps to melt down, etc. They also would have had, (or had access to), their mold, melting pot, ladle, etc. I just doubt carrying them around while on foot would have been a common practice. My guess is that these items would have remained back in the camp/settlement setting and not typically carried around on a daily basis.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan | Registered: 03 June 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Free Trapper
Picture of Montour
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I doubt they would have been carrying it around on their person either, but I doubt it would have been back at the settlements either. We just have to banish this on foot way of thinking, Horses to base camp, then on foot cloverleafing around the base camp to hunt. Not throw on you pack east of the mountains and walk to the Caintuck......

The backpacking mentality is as someone else said, the result of a paucity of folks in the hobby with horses, and that has resulted in a mis-shapen view of the past using our modern points of view about what they must have done......
 
Posts: 150 | Location: Right where Im standing | Registered: 07 September 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Free Trapper
Picture of Montour
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http://www.historicalimagebank...nd_campsite.jpg.html

Check out that ball, looks pulled and remoulded without having access to any extra lead
 
Posts: 150 | Location: Right where Im standing | Registered: 07 September 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Montour - You are entirely correct, Sir, in your statement that few headed off to Caintuck on foot to hunt for hides. If we look at the written record from as far back as Dr Walker ("each man had a packhorse") it becomes clear that the mythic longhunters HAD to have packhorses - when they went out to haul many months worth of non-renewable supplies, and when coming in with the hides that were the reason for the trip.

As Ted Belue tells us in "Hunters of Kentucky",
"they were packhorse men".

Face it, the hides have no value out on the frontier - only when returned to some location where they could be traded for hard goods (and perhaps some cash money) were they worth anything to the hunter.

You are also correct in the assessment that today's living history participant is focused on foot travel because having/keeping a horse is not that common these days. I suspect many of us (self included) would love to go the horse route, but it is simply not practical for most.

So, what to do about the ball casting matter? My take is to go ahead and pack a ladle, mold and some lead in your "budget"...haul along enough ball in your pouch, or knapsack, to serve for the trek at hand and call it good. The hunters most likely did something like this - leave the casting gear at the base camp and upon returning there cast up ball for the next jaunt.

Just my thoughts.

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Free Trapper
Picture of Montour
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of course it does not help that Org's like the ALRA also push this since IIRC, you have to cast a certain number of balls while on a multiday trek. I applaud the fostering of the skill, but the execution of it just reinforces bad practices with no basis in the historical record.....
 
Posts: 150 | Location: Right where Im standing | Registered: 07 September 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of sawbones
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Wow, I had to go back and read this post over again. I swear I thought it said trekking Ladies... I was expecting some good photos.


Never flinch
 
Posts: 524 | Location: Surprise Valley, California/Nevada | Registered: 06 September 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of sawbones
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I'm sorry, I should have read more of this, I guess I wasn't the only one who thought that...


Never flinch
 
Posts: 524 | Location: Surprise Valley, California/Nevada | Registered: 06 September 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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