I was watching Jeremiah Johnson today, and in one scene the "pilgrim" Johnson is trying to catch fish. He meets an Indian, who is later identified as Paints-His-Shirt-Red..., anyway in that scene you can see the muzzle of the Indian's gun, and it's a SxS double, AND you can see that one barrel has a much smaller bore than the other, as well as the ramrod tip..., so he is carrying a SxS rifle/smoothbore combination gun.
It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
The book, Indian Hunts and Indian Hunters of the Old West, by Dr. Frank C. Hibben, has an old photo of a Jicarilla man named Chino, who is holding what appears to be a percussion drilling. The caption identifies it as a "cap and ball double rifle," but if you look carefully at the image, you see right and left sidehammers and an underhammer. The muzzles don't show well in the photograph.
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us. Should have rode horses. Kept dogs."
from The Antelope Wife
I have seen that movie more times than I can count but the only thing I ever think about during that scene is how cold that had to have been.
Me too, but I'm thinkin that J.J. doesn't want to get killed and wants a couple of those fish.
I've noticed the side-by-side and thought it was a nice touch, (though figured it was one lucky Indian to have such a gun). But no better than J.J. could start a fire at that point in his career, I'm unable to suspend disbelief and think J.J. will live through the night. Cold, starvin', and wet, I figure in reality he would be gone beaver before sun-up.
"When Liberty is illegal, only outlaws will be free." Will Ghormley
In 1913, the gold and silver backed dollar was worth a dollar. Today, that same greenback is worth 3 cents. In just under 100 years, the Federal Reserve Bank has made the dollar virtually worthless. Will Ghormley
"Exploit your strengths. Compensate for your weaknesses." Will Ghormley
FWIW - yes it's a double smoothbore/rifle - these were known as cape guns in Africa.
Also while recently leafing through the book, Firearms of the American West 1803-1865, they discuss the use of such guns in the West and it includes documentation of at least one Indian carryin such a firearm.
aka Chuck Burrows
This topic comes up every now and then when someone notices that rifle .
As I recall Paints his shirts rifle carried a round and an octagon barrel . I have a phot somewhere of the muzzle , supposedly from that gun , but its been a long time and ill have to keep looking to find it .
I don’t think its clear exactly what it was . Some claim it to maybe be an Over and under . Others say SXS. Still others think that it was something for the move and not plossable to have been in an Indians hands .
But the fact is that it could very well have been as there are accounts of these types of guns being gifted
I own one such trade double in my collection , though it’s a large , long barreled smooth bore imported by J.W King . Its entirely plausible that Paints his shirt would have had such a gun as they were destined as treaty guns or what we today call chiefs grade .
As grey wolf posted , later on these type of guns became known as Cape guns .
But in fact they date even earlier and were done in both Side by side and over and under with the over and under being earlier in the evolution then the SXS.
We also cannot rule out American production . a lot of times folks wrong think that such a gun would have been a high end gun and defiantly imported but that’s simply not the case .
Here is an example for you to look at and draw your own conclusions from .
Thus rifle is not marked as to its maker . But frankly its not very high end and IMO clearly American made and maybe likely around 1840-50 time frame
this gun is or was for sale on one of the auction sites buy the way .
this is what the listing said so ?????? ill re post it
This unmarked double barrel Kentucky rifle with early percussion system is fully stocked in curly maple. One barrel is rifled one is smoothbore; rifled bore .47 cal; smooth bore .49 caliber. Two piece patch-box, brass toe-plate with long tang; brass trigger guard with spur, and brass pipes.
If you are interested in buying this item, please call (978) 597-8084 or email David Hillier at email@example.com or Aaron Littlefield at firstname.lastname@example.org
here is another one in flintlock that you all my find interesting . again not a very high end piece . sold for less then 700.00
check this link out
[url=http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?ItemId=101852]Double-Barrel Flintlock Combination Rifle Shotgun[/urlThis message has been edited. Last edited by: captchee,
sorry i had to get this morning .
but here are some shots from the movie
myself , as i said , i think its a SXS . But we also have to remeber that its a movie
however if we were to say that this may have been an actual piece . again i have to say SXS vs an over and under . notice that the upper rib is high . thats not done on an over and under or a swivel breech .
it also carries only one Ram rod . which again would be for a SXS .
one end for the smooth barrel . thats the one you see . the other end would have been used for loading the rifle barrel
yeah, I always thought the same thing.
then I realized, oh I'm sure the cameraman will help him out
I think I may have a rather interesting find with reference to 'this' gun. Will Ghormley made mention that Paints His Face Red was "one lucky Indian to have such a gun" and captchee mentioned "the fact is that it could very well have been as there are accounts of these types of guns being gifted". Well, I may have the connection:
Last night, and I mean night...the movie ended at 1AM, I watched an old movie titled 'The Big Sky' starring Kirk Douglas, directed by Howard Hawks and it was made in 1952. It portays the adventures of a crew rowing, pushing and pulling a river boat, being captained by a French fur trader along with some free trappers, going up the Missouri River to trade furs with Indians. Although I have watched this movie on other occassion, I am now in the habbit of paying attention to other details that I have never noticed before. One such detail is the guns being portrayed in the movies.
A little ways into the movie, there it was...a double barreled over/under long gun in flint lock. I caught that first glimps and my eyes were glued to that gun in every scene it was in. As a matter of fact, the gun became the focal point of the movie in two seperate parts. Once, the owner fired a warning shot at some men from a Fur Trading Company and yelled for them to release the Indian they were trying to hold back and announced "I have another barrel on this gun if'n anybody wants it" (at this point you can clearly see it is an over/under).
The second time...and here's the tie, the trapper had to trade the gun to an Blackfeet Indian Chief so he could marry his (Princess) Daughter, which he did. There is the tie. That's how the gun got into the Blackfeet tribe.
Now, Paints His Face Red was a Crow if I remember correctly, so there must have been some Indian to Indian fighting going on somewhere between 1952 and 1972 (that's when these two movies were made) in order for Paints His Face Red to have gotten the gun from the blackfeet Chief. I can't argue that the gun in Paints His Face Red was actually SxS or O/U as the movie never did h=show him shouldering the gun, but...
And so the saga continues. I just found it rather interesting to find these two movies...20 years apart...with a similar gun. Oh yea, and I'm sure only the guys on this site would be interested or lucky enough to catch such a detail.
Now, go Google The Big Sky and read the reviews. Some reviews offer the movie (free or rent from Amazon) on thier sites. I hope you do and find it as interesting a find as I did.
Oh BTW, thanks Hawg for finding this thread, saved me from having to scroll through this section for find it myself.
one can never tell about movies . alot of time what is seen is just props made up in somones mind .
but here are a couple O&U for you
since i posted these photos on the TMA forum , ill post them here as well .
here is a tube rib. not that it really pertains to this topic LOL
Skunk, The rifle "Boone Caudill" used in
The Big Sky was a swivel-breech. Those used one lock and the barrels were swiveled or rotated to bring the "loaded" barrel up to the top. Burt Lancaster used that same gun in another film. The gun carried by Paints-His-Shirt-Red looks like a side-by-side. Not the same gun at all. Shoot sharp, MikeThis message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike Nesbitt,
Yeah, I believe they were presentation guns. This belonged to a Creek Chief.
"1 rifle $10 & 1 double barrel gun $50"
How is that top barrel fired, show us the breech if you have the pic. Puullleeezee.
Hombre del bosque
pistuo deo lalo
sorry i dont have aphot of the breech . but its fired from a ear on the right hammer . it also carries a stall that covers the non firing nipple on that hammer .
here is a link to the tube rib that i posted above . click on the photo of the rifle and look closely . you will see the stall is over the right hand nipple . thus the center barrel would be the one thats fired . you also can see alittle of the center barrel breech
http://www.gun-photos.info/gun...03&iid=295161&aid=53]http://www.gun-photos.info/gunphotos?photoid=8503&iid=295161&aid=53]http://www.gun-photos.info/gun...03&iid=295161&aid=53This message has been edited. Last edited by: captchee,
I've learned to never assume I know "what Indians had", especially from movies. For example, traders in the Great Lakes and Dakotas had hundreds of shoes shipped to them, but what self-respecting Lakota chief would pose for his portrait wearing brogans?
So despite this conversation revolving around a movie or two, let's just say that an Indian could very well have had a side-by-side combo gun. Just my 2 pence, not trying to be a know-it-all.
"Est Deus in Nobis"
I have seen a photograph c. 1865-1875 (iirc) of an Indian holding, wait for it..., a Japanese sword. Apparently he worked for one time for white folks with trading interests in California, and they traded with the Far East, and somebody from the company got hold of a katana, and presented it to the fellow. Wish I had image to post. After the time period of the movie, but again, ya never can tell, eh?
It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
i know we are getting off topic here .
many people don’t realize that the Japanese made contact with the Americas as early as 1610 -1613 . For the most part as I understand it , that was down in the areas known as New Spain . So what we now know as California and Mexico
Now its been a while and so I could be off the mark as to the ship. But as I recall the ship that brought the Japanese ambassador was designed or built under instruction from William Adams . Now that might not mean anything tell those who watch a lot of movies , remember that William Adams was the man who’s story SHOGUN was based around .
as i recall that voyage contained around 200 people to include traders and a number of the shoguns personal samurai
But anyway . Here is a photo for you Dave . While it don’t believe it to be as early as the one your speaking of , its is still rather interesting
the mans name in this photo was Dog Child .
he worked for the CMP as a native Policeman as i understand it
This message has been edited. Last edited by: captchee,
What a photo! Fascinating.
*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
Firearms of the American West: 1803-1865 includes some info on "cape" guns used in America and notes how one was carried by a western Indian.
The double gun in the movie came from John Milius's collection and is a side by side. Milius is a big gun knut and was a writer and director on JJ the movie.
aka Chuck Burrows
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