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Factor |
Hey folks, just when ya think something is "settled", and the issue being that "canoe guns" are handy, accurate, but are a modern invention, and other than maybe one instance when it was shown that smooth bores were severely cut down for concealment purposes by Native Americans, the really short barreled gun wasn't found (unless as a blunderbus)...., I found this example of a Coaching Gun on the web. It was apparently made like this from the beginning; wasn't "cut down". The barrel is 16" and it's a 14 gauge. The lock had a sliding safety bar, so it is presumed this was made just as it is. OK so only one such example, ..., LDThis message has been edited. Last edited by: Loyalist Dave, It's not what you know, it's what you can prove | ||
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Factor |
Hey LD, I could use some "coaching" with that gun! Shoot sharp's the word, Mike | |||
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Graybeard |
Wonder of wonders... Bookmarked that one. Any provenance? Pease | |||
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Booshway |
the museum a Cody has a number of very short carbines. A large number are smoothbore and of flintlock . Myself i dont believe that a canoe gun is modern . More like calling them a canoe gun is modern | |||
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Free Trapper |
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Factor |
Well the issue isn't use of a flintlock from a canoe..., ..., but on other forums folks get a bit bent out-of-shape when folks talk about very short smoothbores, or talk about magazine articles about very short smoothbores, and the guns are often called "canoe guns". Many of the nay sayers mention that there is very little if any provenance or evidence of such guns except for the blunderbus and the dragoon carbine. Many folks think a blunderbus is a naval weapon or something used from a coach just as the SxS was used by the man in the "shotgun" seat of a stagecoach in the 19th century. The dragoon carbine(s) of course being used by specific military units, as were the artillery carbines and the NCO carbines were used by NCO's. This was a lone example of what appears to be a gun made specifically short, not a cut down gun or such, and I think the seller assumes it was used from a "coach", hence the term. One person has already chimed in saying the barrel has a flare at the muzzle..., I'm not certain that it does..., but this implies it's actuall a blunderbus. So I thought that in the future if anybody wanted a short barreled fusil, they might have a close copy of this one made, and dispell any objections to it not being HC, at least for 1770 + LD It's not what you know, it's what you can prove | |||
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Factor |
For example, one fellow is certain the muzzle is flared and wrote this..., These were specifically designed and made in Britain as well as Europe for this purpose [use on a stagecoach] I guess they could have used them in canoes if canoes were used in Britain..... And then he added a "smiley" that was shaking it's head "no". Like there was some sort of barrier to prevent such guns from being imported into America..., and the Colonies never had coaches. (imho) It dispells the idea that specific firearms were not made for civilian use with specific modes of transportation..., which seems to be the basic premis of the argument. "Were they widespread?" is a different phase of such a discussion. LD It's not what you know, it's what you can prove | |||
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Free Trapper |
Folks can use whatever they want in the woods, or at a Rendevous. The Butthurtedness always comes when someone tries to crossover into public interpretation, or even just public events that have a professional museum slant. Neither cutting down guns to attack a fort in present day Michigan, nor a yankee gun from somewhere north of New York City has much traction in the Trans Appilachian west | |||
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Booshway |
again , not so much as to "IF' the exsisted . but what they were called or used for | |||
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Factor |
How about "gun"? Just kidding. Some of us have too much time on our hands! Dick "Est Deus in Nobis" | |||
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Booshway |
I kinda like Dick's idea..just call it a gun...what's wrong with calling it a short barrelled tradegun?.. other than it dosen't have a catchey name like canoe gun.... People have tinkered with and modified firearms from the begining.... seems to be many examples of shorter than normal tradeguns and rifles out there.... Is the issue...did tradegun makers make a shorter than normal barrel at the factory?.... Andy Follow me I am the Infantry | |||
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Factor |
Speaking of catchey names, when did the term "trade gun" come into use? I haven't seen that used in the quotes of original orders. Shoot sharp, Mike | |||
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Factor |
Mike's correct. "Trade gun" is mostly a modern appellation. In the lists they're called "common guns," (or "fine" or "chief's"), or "fusils," or "North West guns," or in the southeast, "Carolina guns." If they wanted to specify something else, like rifles, they said so. Dick "Est Deus in Nobis" | |||
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Booshway |
Here's a short one for you: Short Northwest Gun. The image is unfortunately distorted, but it does certainly appear that both the barrel and the buttstock have been shortened. I did go to the Manitoba Museum website, but was unable to pull up a better image of the gun, which is in their collection. Notchy Bob "Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us. Should have rode horses. Kept dogs." from The Antelope Wife | |||
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Free Trapper |
Yall know where this is going right? A guy gets one of these short guns and shoots it just fine at the Rendevous, but then he tries to use it at a reenactment, and it is not allowed because its short length makes in ranks firing unsafe for the folks around him, and then he will come here and rant and rave about how bad the reenactors are.... | |||
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Booshway |
Yes . However , I think where the change came up was with the trade companies themselves . While the list them as common grade , the guns became known by a specific name . Ie . North west trade gun “HB” and Mackinaw ,” NW Company” Then we have the whole earlier lines of common guns that were designed specifically to be destined for the North American Native trade. Now add into that mix , “Guns of Trade” . which again are listed as Common . But often times includes refurbished guns as well as what we know as trade guns . So you we often see things like heavy fowlers ,SXS and in later times , smooth bores and rifles in both muzzleloader and cartridge ,being used in common trade . This is IMO where the short carbine style pieces come into play . Simply put , IMO they were probably nothing more then a refurbished piece which for one reason or another , made their way back into the trade system or in other cases may have been purposely cut down do to damage or necessity As a later example, cut down 1884 Springfield’s . When I worked at the MoI we had a number of 1884 that were cut down to resemble carbines . Then you had the Spencer and sharps carbines . Some of which showed heavy probability of being American Indian owned . One of the issues IMO we run into when we take the trade lists as proof of a given items description, is that we lose necessity. IE we forget that these list were just as they describe IE “common “ thus we forget that many time needs were specific . Just like today the largest retailers sell a large line of Common Items destined to the largest number of consumers . Its good business since because that were the money is . But even today , its not uncommon for a consumer to purchase an item and then modify that item to their needs . If those modifications become popular enough . Then either new companies spring up to support those modifications or the original parent company begins to sell the item with the option of the modification . As such topics like this will be endless in their time frame especially concerning firearms . Imagine if you will , 100 years from now . With the popularity of Cowboy action , what do you think the discussion concerning early cartridge SXS will be , with the crowing number of examples of very short barreled SXS . Surly these will be described as coach guns . Never mind that a very large number of these were not made with short barrels for that purpose . They were cut down by people today with far fewer being actually done in a prior time frame. With even far fewer being purposely built and sold in that configuration with even fewer being listed and described as such . Also we should remember that when it comes to re-enacting , we are discussing a base of specific commonalities . NOT individual specifics as in case by case .so while an individual specific item may be documented . Its some times , heavily questioned because it wasn’t common to that specific area or time . Other times accepted trends get mixed into this . Be it cloths , colors of cloths as well as guns . doesn’t mater the proof that staring us right in the face. So we end up with surviving examples that are constantly challenged either by not being commonly supported with documentation or commonly accepted even if supported by documentation because it’s not part of an accepted trend | |||
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Greenhorn |
Canoe guns were popular cause you had to stack up a shorter muzzle high pile of beaver skins to buy them right? sorry, just kidding.. tc | |||
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Booshway |
Thanks for the laugh...TCA.....now to clean coffee of the keyboard.... Andy Follow me I am the Infantry | |||
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Factor |
A good analysis, Captchee. I of course don't know how the guns were referred to "in the field" by actual users. They might have just said, "give me that gun!" or "gimme that fusee!" And it's true that occasionally or even commonly there were reworked military guns or whatever that were sold "in the trade." That was most likely the case in the example of Sir William Johnson complaining to his suppliers way back before the Revolution that the guns sent had bores that were too big, and the Indians didn't like them. And I haven't studied trade records from the American south and southeast. The records I've seen that come from Montreal, etc. all pretty much refer to them as I mentioned: fusils, NW guns, common guns, etc. The guns we call "trade guns", i.e. the NW guns with the flat sheet-brass butt plates, serpent side plates, etc. were pretty standardized. And it appears that when a trader ordered, say, "common guns" and "fine guns" or "chief's guns" the suppliers mostly knew what they meant. Not always, and often other types were put out there. (Not picking a fight, just carrying on the discussion...) Dick
"Est Deus in Nobis" | |||
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Greenhorn |
I expect the natives had the ability to shorten a standard trade gun themselves maybe...as might be evidenced by the number of shortened fusils smuggled into Fort Makinac under their blankets during that infamous Lacross match? tca | |||
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