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Booshway
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Most of the contemporary swamped barrels that I have seen have a much more drastic taper that most originals. Jim Webb measured a lot of southern mountain barrels and tabulated the results in his book, and none were even close to what is available today. OTH is seems a waste to pay extra money for a custom swamped barrel that is historically correct and the only way to tell that it is swamped is to measure it (I have an original that is like that). Some of the old barrels had such a minimum taper that you have to wonder if it was intentional or if it was just because of a certain manufacturing technique. If $$ are a big concern and you are trying to achieve an historically correct barrel, you could probably draw file a straight to contour, but that requires plenty of hours(perhaps it could be chalked up as therapy?????) I'm thinking that if you are looking at primarily a shooter that a small straight oct barrel about 38" long would do fine.
 
Posts: 332 | Location: South Coast (MS) | Registered: 16 September 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Captchee as I posted I tried the wieght on the wrist. As to balance point it is about 14" ahead of the breech,that's why I have the rear sight where it is ,so it isn't in my hand when carrying it.This was a precarved if that makes any difference.On the last build(Haines style) balance point is only about 8-10" ahead of the breech. So is it only because of the 38" vs 42" barrel or the butt on the Haines being heavier,swamped barrel or I just lucked out?


I never have been much for drinking the kool-aid.It's not in my nature.
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Central Pennsyltucky | Registered: 12 January 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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4 inch in a balance point is a mater of Ounce’s back of the balance point .
The farther from the point you get , the greater the effect .
Its like the old move a giant bolder principle of leverage. IE in that if you have a long enough lever , a person can move a very heavy object .
The difference however is that we are confined within a given measurement / length of lever which is the distance back of your desired balance point compared to the bolder which is the weight forward of the balance point .

So we have to look at a few things .
How do we minimize weight forward while at the same time maintaining a weight rearward.

Well if we realize that the closer to the balance point that forward weight is , then the less effect we have on the rear weight. Again remember we are talking ounces here .
that’s why a swamped barrel can actually make little difference in the balance while at the same time taking away from the total weight of your gun . IE depending on the swamp profile , it can remove weight closer to the balance . Yet leave weight at the muzzle .
So in a since what you are doing by going to a shorter barrel , is removing the weight that to far forward .

But with a straight barrel we don’t get that . So what we do is remove the compensating weight IE is the forestock thick and heavy , it in fact shouldn’t be as the forestock doesn’t support the barrel , the barrel supports it . So by slimming that forestock down , we then reduce weight forward of the balance
.
So once we have a mind of what needs done forward , we then can look rearward for our counterbalance. So whats back there , well your butt plate . that’s key because it’s the farthest weight that’s rear of the balance point . As such a long pull is a plus while a short pull can be complicated .
But not only is that pull acting as leverage , its also acting as weight “ IE weight of the stock .
So lets say you use a soft piece of wood , its lighter then a dense piece of the same type of wood . Now lets say you add a deep , large patch box . What did you just do . Well you removed weight ,
Next is your TG , . Then you have your TG , lock plate and lock which all add weight in virtually the same spot .. Which is back of the balance , but again closer to it , so that weight has less of an effect .

maybe im confusing you so here is what I do when I build a long rifle with a strait barrel .

As soon as I get the barrel completely inlet , I then chose my balance point . For a neutral balance I chose a point that’s 4-5 inchs in front of the lock plate . This point should be right where you carry the rifle . That point should also be where your off hand is when you shoulder the gun .

Once I locate that point I then check for where the true balance point is and I mark that
Now setting the stock on the desired balance point , I take the butt plate and tape it to the back of the stock in it general location . Now I check the true balance point again and make a market its new location .
I continue to follow the same process with each piece that im going to add tell the point I have all my piece taped to the stock .
At that time I set back and consider how far from my desired balance point the actual balance point is .
There have been times when the actual balance point has been back of the desired balance point . But most times its still a couple inchs forward .

So what to do . Well as I said , we are down to ounces . I know that slimming down the forestock will normally bring the balance back a couple inchs . Reducing the length of my RR channel also saves an ounce or so . Adding a toe plate or larger patch box without making an overly large patch cavity also adds rear weight . It all comes down to planning .

See as Pete said . The swamp barrels we use today have a far greater swamped profile the the vast majority of originals. We also use lighter and stronger steel . In the end there is a lot of things to consider when laying out a gun .
If you look back at the ½ stock I posted that’s balance on the back of a chair . Realize that rifle has a 39 C profile swamped barrel . It also has an under rib and a pewter nose cap .
Yet despite all that it balances right in the carry location .

Anyway . My point is that building another gun , with a shorter barrel , may in fact not balance any better then the one you have . It has to be built to balance where you want it . If one doesn’t do that and just starts adding parts to a pre-carve , then your get what you get , nothing less and nothing more .
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Amazing Captchee and great information! I know little about gun building but the information you share helps me to have some idea.

BC


"Better fare hard with good men than feast it with bad."
Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 649 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 27 June 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Ok , here is a little quickie that hopefully shows what I was getting at ad may help Hanshi some .
Ok so this is a pre-carve ,Lehigh , so close to what Hanshi is looking at . This particular one has a 42 inch 7/8 , 50 cal ,strait barrel that weighs 5.05 lbs
Now if we were to replace that barrel with a 42 in , ¾ , 36 cal barrel , that barrel would weight 5.19 lbs.
So only slightly more in weight .
Now this first photo shows the rifle at it natural balance point with the barrel inlet . Its 15 inchs from the breech



Now , in this photo I have placed the bag of parts . IE , Lock , TG and Trigger,.
Now this is alittle misleading as the TG will place its weight alittle more back . But I think you get the point



Now notice how far , just these parts have moved the BP back.
They also do not include the side plate

Now in this photo , I have taped the BP at 13 inchs to show a forward placement for shorter pull .
Notice the change in BP with just the BP


So combined the bag of parts with the BP and the BP moves back to an inch from the RR entry .

But I have not yet included the patch box , toe plate or the hidden box release . I have no doubt that when I add those , the Bp will move back very near where I want it . In Fact if I move the Butt plate back to the correct length of pull now , it balances within ½ of where I want it .
As such im sure I can neutrally balance this rifle even though a lot of wood still has to come off as the vast majority of it will be coming from the forestock which will lighten the forward weight even more even though im adding thimbles .
so Hanshi , i dont think you will have an issue balancing your rifle .
now a swamped barrel will make it lighter by a few ounces. ballance wise ???/ w you maybe able to move the ballance back to the front of the lock mortise . But i wouldnt recommend that as it would then plase a negitive ballence while in the hold , unless you suport the rifle right at the ballance
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Great explanation Captchee. I like the photos to go with the words.I will remember this.


I never have been much for drinking the kool-aid.It's not in my nature.
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Central Pennsyltucky | Registered: 12 January 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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