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3F Blackpowder vs 777
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Booshway
Picture of Deercop
posted
I don't have a chronograph, and am curious as to what the relative velocities are using the same volumes of 3F blackpowder vs 777.

Has anyone here done a comparison?

I just spent a weekend at the muzzleloading event at the NM Outdoor Expo. We were letting the public experience loading and shooting .50cal T/C percussion White Mountain Carbines. We were only loading with 30grs. of 777, and it appeared to be hitting the steel swinging targets with some authority, even at 75yds.It appears to me that 777 is "hotter" than blackpowder, but was curious as to if anyone had compared the two?

By the way, we had 4200 people attend the event. By the number of balls we went through (3x/shooter), we estimate 3125 shot a muzzleloader..most for the first time ever! (or any firearm for that matter!)
 
Posts: 649 | Location: Clovis, New Mexico | Registered: 21 March 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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Some time back, I acquired a box of 777 .50 gr. .50 caliber pellets. I loaded one pellet in my .50 cal Renegade, then a PRB. I capped and shot. Sometime after the cap went off the main charge of the 777 pellet fired. Much worse than my flinter as far as a delay fire.

I put another pellet in and this time, I crushed it with my ramrod. I then finished loading with another PRB. I capped and fired. This time I was rewarded with an instantaneous firing and recoil consistent with my 85 gr charge of 3F.

I shot 3 more times in the same manner and all were consistent. The shots were accurate and would lead a person to believe that 777 is more potent than 3F Black Powder.

I know that by crushing the pellet, I created some finer granules that would ignite quicker and maybe burn hotter. But I don't think that all 50 grs were mashed to dust. JMHO. YMMV.

Draw a fine bead on em Son! Bobby
 
Posts: 56 | Location: Southwest Arkansas | Registered: 09 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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That was sorta the feeling I had too Gunrunner.
I had total novices hitting swingers at 25 and 50yds..and a steel pig or bear at 75! The 30gr. 777 charge acted similar to a 50gr. 3f blackpowder charge.
This was my 1st experience with 777. I was actually pretty impressed..hundreds of rounds fired with no cleaning, just a lubricated patch on the round ball. At the end of the day it only took 3 cleaning patches with solvent to clean the barrel. Cleaning around the nipple was a different story..it had such a thick deposit it had to be soaked and scrubbed just to get enough of the nipple exposed to use a nipple wrench on it!
I have to make a several hundred mile round trip to pick up blackpowder, where I can get 777 locally. I'm thinking real seriously about using 777 in my percussion guns and saving the blackpowder for my flintlocks.
 
Posts: 649 | Location: Clovis, New Mexico | Registered: 21 March 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Yes T7 has more get up then Black powder . If you read the hodgdens recommendations you will see that . Pyro also does .
As to how well T7 works ,,,, well that seems to very from person to person . Myself I have found it to be the most godoffle powder since shockies gold . Its about like dumping dirt down my bore . As to clean up . Never had a problem around the nipples , it’s the crud ring in the bore .
i no longer use it . only took me 2lbs to go , nope , not for me
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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My only experience with 777 and American Pioneer Powder is in a 1858 revolver.I couldn't load the cylinders and let them set. The powder wouldn't go off. I can load the cylinders with Goex and let them set for months and they fire just fine. So I don't know how the synthetics would do on an all day hunt in less than ideal conditions.


I never have been much for drinking the kool-aid.It's not in my nature.
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Central Pennsyltucky | Registered: 12 January 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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I've got a couple of cans of 777 that I got when I bought a bunch of muzzleloading supplies off of a guy. It cleans up pretty easily and I get pretty good accuracy out of it but it burns patches up way more than the same amount of Goex FFF.


Over-the-log shooting, the second most fun you can have laying down.
 
Posts: 64 | Location: Volunteer State | Registered: 02 April 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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I took my .32 Crockett out to the range yesterday. I have it zeroed for 25yds with 30gr. of FFFG.
I started with 20gr. of 777. It shot center, with a 3 shot, 3/8" group.
I did the same with 25gr. and 30gr. The 25gr. shot to center also, with about the same size group. The 30gr. shot about 1/2" high with all 3 shots going through 1 hole.
(I would love to say this was all offhand..but have to admit to using sandbags on a bench Smiler)
I have this rifle sighted at 25yds as I mostly use it for squirrels, and that's about my maximum range shot taking them out of trees.
I'm hoping to get out there again and try these loads at 50,75,and 100yds. Curious to see how much the groups open up, and how much drop there is. Would be fun using this for prairie dogs! I couldn't this time as law enforcement was having training going on on longer ranges.

Militant_Hillbilly, because of your post, I checked my patches. I didn't find any that were burned. I was using "moose milk" as a patch lube. Maybe that prevented patches being burned?

Yeah, I kinda like this 777 for my percussion guns. 30 shots thru the .32 with no cleaning between, good groups, and cleaned up with 3 patches and water. Gonna save the blackpowder for competition/rondezvous and my flinters.
 
Posts: 649 | Location: Clovis, New Mexico | Registered: 21 March 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Deercop,why would you save the Holy Black for your flinters?Is there something I should be aware of regarding shooting the synthetics through my flinter(when I get it)?


Beer is proof that God loves us,and wants us to be happy-B. Franklin
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: Oreegun Territory | Registered: 24 March 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Boartooth, the synthetics have a higher ignition point than blackpowder. The spark from a flinter isn't always hot enough to ignite the priming powder.
I know some folks who prime with blackpowder, and load a few grains of black under their primary charge of synthetic, but that seems like an awful lot of trouble to me.
 
Posts: 649 | Location: Clovis, New Mexico | Registered: 21 March 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Ahh,thanks,that should save me a lot of frustration....This is a very new technology to me.


Beer is proof that God loves us,and wants us to be happy-B. Franklin
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: Oreegun Territory | Registered: 24 March 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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I love my flinters, but when I've had to fly somewhere for a hunt, and can't take powder with me, I'll take a percussion gun along too.

Due to storage requirements, you can't count on finding blackpowder. I've had guides/outfitters flat out lie about it's accessability. But you can generally find Pyrodex/777 just about anywhere, as it has no storage requirements and can be kept on a shelf.
 
Posts: 649 | Location: Clovis, New Mexico | Registered: 21 March 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Hmmm,ok,what are the special storage requirements for the Holy Black? Other than the usual,keep it dry,and something under 150 degrees?


Beer is proof that God loves us,and wants us to be happy-B. Franklin
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: Oreegun Territory | Registered: 24 March 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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I'm sure there are folks on here who know more about the laws concerning blackpowder, but I do know that dealers must store it in a powder magazine, as it is classified as a low explosive. Unless it's a gun shop that caters to blackpowder shooters, it's usually not worth the investment. Smokeless powders and synthetic muzzleloading powders are not classifed as explosives, so they can be kept in the cardboard boxes they were shipped in.

What I think is funny is that you can go purchase 25lbs of blackpowder with no problem. Buy 26lbs. and ATF&E will come knocking on your door!
 
Posts: 649 | Location: Clovis, New Mexico | Registered: 21 March 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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The Federal regulations come into play over 50 lbs of black powder describing the construction of a powder magazine. Unless there have been recent changes, an individual could own not to exceed 50 lbs for his own sporting use. Don't sell black powder without the right Federal explosives license. For your own sporting use, check to see if your city or county have ordinances you need to be aware of to stay in the good graces of your local fire department and homeowner's insurance underwriters.

Many folks favor an old refrigerator or freezer out in their garage for storing powder. I store my supply outside in an un-airconditioned storage shed with ambient temperature between 25 and 100 deg F, and haven't seen any sign of deterioration. It's in the original 1 lb metal cans, packed in the original cardboard shipping box. BP is a chemical mixture, not a compound, so may make it pretty stable stuff.

Do a Campfire site search on 'storage' and you'll find plenty of other info.


Here's a health to the King and a lasting Peace. May Faction end and Wealth increase....Old Loyalist Ballad
 
Posts: 767 | Location: Panhandle Florida | Registered: 02 February 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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777 is terrible in flint and percussion guns, particularly flinters. I used some friend's who had an inline at the range one time because I heard it was difficult to ignite. Stick with real blackpowder.
 
Posts: 26 | Location: Northern Nevada | Registered: 10 October 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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Sorry to hijack this thread,
But I believe the law is written as it is because black powder is a class A(?) explosive where 777, pyrodex and smokeless powders are classed as propellants therefore easier to keep on hand due to lack of the same restrictions etc of black powder , this is what I was told anyone here know something else ?
thanks smitty
 
Posts: 95 | Location: Both alaska and washington state | Registered: 05 August 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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quote:
sourdoughsmitty


it is true that BP is considered an explosive and synthetic powders considered propellants.
The real question is why ?
While the synthetics don’t really work well in flintlocks do to their higher ignition temps . They react the very same way as BP does when exposed to a open flame. They do not react the same way as smokeless powder which is a progressive slow burn type of powder. When their pressures are contained and ignited , all 3 produce much the same result .
When used for blasting the synthetics work as well as BP where smokeless has a tendency to not deliver the energy correctly or simply blow the packing from the hole .

So what we have is a knee jerk law that re classified BP as a class 1 explosive which then placed special restrictions on it . When factually its no more libel to produce undesired result then that can of T7 setting above the heater or back of ones closet .
In fact proportionately that can of T7 would actually produce even greater pressure if it went up
Cost wise . BP is also a lot cheaper. until 4 years ago I was still buying BP from out Goex distributor for under 9.00a lb and that’s after his markup . Right now im still buying Goex for under 14.00lb in the can after his mark up .
Also note that I live clear across the US from the plant . So not only does that cost carry a markup but it also carries delivery fees all the way to Wyoming .

Kind of puts a big damper in the cost effective idea for retailers when they are selling BP back east for 24-30.00 while being within a few hundred miles of the plant now doesn’t it .

As to storage . As a class 1 explosive , the federal law requires you to store the powder in a specifically built containment device . Federal laws also give a max amount you can own for your own personal use . However state and local laws very and in fact may required different storage as well as more restrictive in the amount you can own . But again that’s all because of the class 1 explosive rating . Which by the way it hasn’t always been rated as . In fact I can remember buying BP right off the shelf, right next to red dot and Unique . It wasn’t to long ago that those same places took it from the shelf but offered it behind the counter
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Anything other than black powder is heresy and of the devil!
 
Posts: 552 | Location: SC | Registered: 03 May 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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LOL that's a good un!

My take on the whole situation is this. You want clean and high velocity..., shoot a smokeless cartridge gun. Complaining about a dirty barrel and BP to me is like a swimmer complaining about getting wet. It seems most thread on this topic all want to know if product X "burns cleaner"..., though in this case the thread started as a power question.

The original substitute was created NOT to improve upon black powder, but to get around the storage and shipping regulations that were beginning to crop up. PLUS, apparently the manufacturing process has a lower accident rate, so Hodgdon was looking to break into that niche of shooters..., while not blowing up a factory.

Pure and simple..., my 3Fg of Goex will work in all of my BP firearms, while the substitutes will not. Now, ifin I was not interested in flinters, I might not care. BUT as the cap supply is a bit iffy right now, my flintlocks will be going strong for years to come. I can't say that about my Hawken, CVA, nor my New Englander. So..., I will continue to buy basic Goex, as the cap supply may suffer, and import of overseas "superior" BP may be curtailed, but the American product, probably will survive...., as long as there are enough customers to support the company.

I plan to do my part.

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Since I started this topic, I've had a chance to get out on the range a few more times.

My most accurate load in my .32 Crockett is 35gr. of 3F under a .310 ball and .010 patch lubed with "moosemilk".
Using the same ball and patch combination, I tried loads using Pyrodex and 777.
My most accurate load using the Pyrodex was the same as the 3F..35gr.
The most accurate load with 777 was 30gr. So maybe 777 is "hotter" than blackpowder?
Guess it still comes down to finding a chronograph.

I should add this was at 50yds, not the 30 I have this rifle normally sighted to.
 
Posts: 649 | Location: Clovis, New Mexico | Registered: 21 March 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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