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Booshway
Picture of arkansawwind
posted
Gents, we all know that there have been a few guns made with brass bbls. My question is why wasnt it or isnt it used more for bbls?. Is it a strenth issue, weight issue, cost issue or what are the reasons it(brass) is not used more. I am no metalurgest am hoping some of our members with knowledge and experience will jump in and educate us ignorat one out here. will stop for now I have others points to bring up but lets see if this thread goes anywhwere first, wonderin arkansaw
 
Posts: 745 | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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Not sure I can give you a factual answer past my own opinion.
I would say yes to all the issues you mentioned .
The other issue is that brass like bronze , work hardens . So over time it continues to get harder and more brittle each time you shoot it .
Now that being said you can still get Brass barrels . Well some semblance of brass anyway. Ed Rayl sells brass barrels . I personally have never had a customer order one so I don’t know for sure . But I have been told that they are a special alloy .
I would gibe Ed a call . Talk with him some on the subject
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Brass was used on some pistols and some of the very early firearms. Brass was also used by most of Europes navies for their cannons up untill they perfected better iron cannons. Snall bore brass cannos were used by the British navy for many years. Once iron cannons could be forged so they could withstand lager charges than brass cannons, the brass cannon went the way of the dodo bird.

By the time the Civil War was being fought, the iron cannon had become a work of art through better forging techniques. Three cases in point were the Parot, a rifled canon, the Dahlgen, a large navy snooth bore, and the gient Rodman cannons.

Brass is soft and can't hold the pressure that iron can withstand.

Load fast and aim slow.
 
Posts: 1726 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 08 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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photos by Rich Pierce
Schoharie, NY, Old Stone Fort Museum









the Brass barrel Bethlehem rifle also comes to mind as its one that most folks think of when it comes to rifles
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Some folks when they see it polished, confuse brass with bronze. Bronze was a very popular metal for field artillery, and the 12 pound "Napoleon" bronze field gun was the most popular piece of field artillery for both sides of the CW. It's possilbe that some antique guns identified as having "brass barrels" actually have bronze barrels.

The HMS Victory put to sea in 1737, and sank in 1744 off of Portsmouth, England carrying more than 100 bronze cannon. This is not Lord Nelson's ship Victory, which followed this one and was launched in 1765.

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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The British fought the French for far too many years and were therefore forced to be frugal. In other words, they used what the had, even if they had to outfit ships with dated equipment. Loyalist Dave pointed out that the HMS Victory was commissioned with bronze cannons. For that matter, the 1853 Napoleoan, 12 LB field cannon used in the Civil War was bronze. The Bronze cannons had there uses but iron cannons became the norm.

One advantage the bronze cannon had at sea was the fact it didn't rust.

Please notice that I didn't give a finite date that brass or bronze cannons stopped being used. like so many other things, they continued to be used out of neccessity, cost, lack of replacements, and for specilaised items. The 12 LB Napoleon's used in the Civil War were bronze smooth bores, lighter than the iron cannons, and therefore performed well as light field artilary.

Brass and bronze cannons were easier to forge and had many advantages. By the 1800's the iron cannon was deffinitly pushing the bronze ones out. The need for more power, longer ranges, etc. gave the iron cannons the edge.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Some of the big iron muzzleloading Rodman cannons of the Civil War were still being used to protect our coast during WWI, clearly the age of breech loading and disapearing cannons. Some changes come very slowly.

Load fast and aim slow.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: White Finger,
 
Posts: 1726 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 08 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Notchy Bob
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The following came in on a listserve to which I subscribe:

“Bronze, or rather that particular kind called “gunmetal”, consists of an alloy of about 90 parts of copper and 10 of tin… it is deficient in hardness, being readily indented and abraded by the projectile, and expanded by the force of the explosion, this softness being increased as the material becomes heated from continuous firing… The want of uniformity in large bronze castings is due to the fact that copper and tin do not form one definite alloy in the proportion of ten to one (the theoretical proportion in gun-metal), but will form numbers of alloys varying in the richness of either metal. The specific gravity and temperature of fusion of the two metals being also very different, it follows that they separate more or less from one another while cooling, and thus are formed those tin spots and porous patches which have hitherto led to the failure of this material...”

(Captain Franc Stoney & Captain Charles Jones, A Text-Book of the Construction and Manufacture of the Rifled Ordnance in the British Service,1872)

I thought the the comments were interesting, and pertinent to this discussion.

Notchy Bob


"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us. Should have rode horses. Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife
 
Posts: 333 | Location: Florida | Registered: 24 May 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of arkansawwind
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Gentlemen, thank you for your replies. I did some seaching on the internet on brass and bronze, I found out that both metals were versitle, and their properities and characteristics could be altered depending on the amount and blend of metals used to form brass or bronze. While brass(bronze) wasnt used much in personal long arms and pistols ,it was used enough so we know for sure it was doable. Would I trust a brass bbl the anwnser is YES, with these qualifications, that the bbl be constructed by a knowledgeable and experienced machinist, with a background in metalurgy and firearms. Like capt said mr. rayl does make brass bbls, as mr rayl has a sterling reputation for quality work I am confident that he would use a proper alloy suitale for gun barrels. In my final analisis I have concluded that the idea brass bbl would be drilled out and a steel line inserted and rifled. this would in my way of thinking ensure the strength needed for said bbl and should satisfy the most safety conchious pesons. the only question remaining is in finding a qualified person willing to do the work and as always what would the cost be. with an adequate amount a fella could build a unique gun Man wouldnt be purtty. I am through talking now yours arkansawwindb
 
Posts: 745 | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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