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Smoothbore with ball?
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Booshway
posted
Lads: Trying to tune my skills with a new-to-me .62 cal (20 gauge) smoothbore I just got hold of. I am wondering how you folk may load for round ball shooting. The recent Mark Sage article on the Type G trade gun notes that he uses an over-powder wad and a bare ball. His Type G is also .62 cal and he uses a .610 ball. I measured mine and it mics to .617...so I wonder if a .610 might promote better accuracy than the .600 I am now using. The other day on the range I tried with and without patching and did not see a huge difference at 35-45 yds. I was using a 70 grain charge of 3F, all I have available here.

I had also read some time back the earlier Sage article on trade guns wherein he shared interesting archeological discoveries where guns lost in a river had been recovered and their loads examined. Neat stuff.

So, you guys got any tips on this?

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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For my .62 I shoot 80gr. 2F, over powder card, 1/2 of a 1/2" fiber was lubed up w/ Bore Butter, and a .600 ball wrapped in a .010 patch also lubed w/ Bore Butter. I haven't tried a bare ball yet but I may sometime. Actually I was shooting mine yesterday. I am considering putting on a rear sight on mine. I'll try and figure out a temporary one first and try it before I do anything permanent. Smoothbores are great! Best regards. Rockerhound
 
Posts: 1128 | Location: Iowa | Registered: 15 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
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Using a .600 bare ball cast from WW (.605"), 60 grains 3F and lubed 1/2" cushion wad 5 shot groups are in the 5" to 6" range which is fine for the deer woods. Using the same WW ball, lubed .010" patch over a 1/2" cushion wad and 60 or 70 grains of 3F does quite a bit better which, in reality, is neither here nor there.

This past season I killed a large doe with the above patched load but either would have sufficed. I'm still not through testing but do have these to fall back on.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3560 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Hanshi -Well, your report makes me feel a whole lot better! Being basically a "rifleman" I was dejected over my shooting yesterday, but per your comments I perhaps should re-think that. I was shooting at about 35 yards (paced, not measured) and was getting 7 of 8 rounds inside a 6" circle, and on most of the targets (4 out of 5) got two or more into a 2 1/2" bull at the center - one was even at dead center. So, perhaps I am asking too much of a smoothbore?

With my .45 cal TVM I can consistently put 5 of 6 rounds into that black center at 50 yards, and a bit fewer at 75...which is the maximum range at my shooting place.

Thanks for the information and inadvertent encouragement!

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Rockerdog - When my smoothbore arrived in my hands it had a rear sight, which has worked out quite well. I had been told that "smoothbores never had rear sights", yet in the recent ML issue I found Mark Sage telling us that, relative to the Type G trade gun he was discussing, that "many, if not most, had rear sights"...

So, I guess it is, as usual, an error to be too absolute in any statements one might make concerning historic firearms.

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
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Col. Boone, My groups were at 50 yards and there's no reason you can't get what you're after at that range as well. My gun also has a rear sight which helps a great deal. Patched ball will almost surely give you better accuracy than a bare ball load. Again, 5" to 6" groups at 50 are very good.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3560 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
Picture of Bucksco
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What is the purpose of using an over powder card and fiber cushion with a patched round ball?
 
Posts: 47 | Location: Jefferson County, PA | Registered: 25 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Hunts4Deer
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Col. Boone,
It's really hard to generalize about this subject as there seem to be as many opinions as there are shooters. I have noticed a few generalizations in the postings, though.

A ball about .020 smaller than bore size with a thicker patch (.015-.020+) well lubed does seem to pop up often as a favored choice. But bare ball accuracy is often very close in results.

Many say if you are loading a tight patched ball combo it should be tight because of a thick patch, not a large ball with thin patch. But no need to be so tight as to have any difficulty starting the ball down the barrel.

Some like FFG saying it gave better accuracy; some say FFFG is better. But most agree FFFG burns cleaner and gives more velocity for the same grain load.

Loads vary from 60 grains to maybe 120+ grains. I'm using 70 grains FFG and getting 4" groups at 50 yards. Roundball likes heavy loads and has measured results to prove tighter groups with heavy loads. Check his postings.

A lubed felt wad or hard card and cushion wad seems to give some degree of improvement for many and definitely makes loading easier for subsequent shots - important at the range, but not for hunting.

To be historically correct I think you would not use lubed cloth patch on the ball and would use either a paper cartridge or, maybe dry tow wadding both over and under the ball.

Bob Spence has great pages on smoothbore shooting.
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/index.html

Good luck with your new toy!


John
Vive le Roy!
 
Posts: 513 | Location: Colony of Maryland | Registered: 04 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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quote:
A lubed felt wad or hard card and cushion wad seems to give some degree of improvement for many


Agreed. But, I would change "many" to 'some'.
The wad thing seems to work for some but not everyone. Another ml mystery. I haven't shot mine enough to see a difference, if any. Thus far accuracy seems same with or without wads.
 
Posts: 1487 | Location: Mountain Home, Arkansas | Registered: 08 October 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
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quote:
Originally posted by Bucksco:
What is the purpose of using an over powder card and fiber cushion with a patched round ball?



The cushion wad prevents blow-by and protects the (usually thin) patch.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3560 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Hunts4, et al - Thanks for all the tips. Sadly I cannot carry on with the testing 'cause the gun is leaving today for Kentucky! I will follow May 2 and we shall have our next outing together at Friendship....crazy place to "test" a gun, but that is how it seems to be destined. There is a smoothbore only shooting match during Lore of the Laughery and I shall be among the contenders. Likely the "laughrey" will be on me.. :-) Oh, well, got to learn somehow.

I got .600 and patching, as well as .610 to run bare ball and likely will try both. We shall see and I shall report. Wish me luck, Lads, guarantee I shall need it!

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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I have heard many say that they get a bit better groups with a larger ball than what they use with a patch when bare balling, I have had good results with the same size as that which I use with a patch, but am certain this would improve if I used a larger ball, but I find 3-4" groups off hand are ok for my Deer hunting needs even 4-5" groups would be sufficient for me at the 50 yd mark which is my outside limit.I imagine the amount of time one spends at the range and the fit of the gun are nearly as big a factor as the ball size.
 
Posts: 272 | Registered: 12 June 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Your right trg1. Time at the range is most important. Boone, I've noy shot in any smoothbore competitions but I've heard that in some a rear sight isn't alowed. Have fun. I wish i could be there with ya. Best regards. Rockerhound
 
Posts: 1128 | Location: Iowa | Registered: 15 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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It's one of the mystiques of shotgunning. Especially when shooting birds on-the-wing, each gun seems to have its own quirks. My hunting buddy's 20 gauge likes a 70 grain load of 3Fg, followed by a 1/4" fiber wad, followed by a .610 bare ball, followed by an overshot card. It hates patched ball. We will need to up the powder a bit to test the "heavy load" idea, just to be sure.

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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FWIW all the smoothbore I have had did best with 3f or a mix of 50%/50% 2f/3f i did not use the mix in a couple of the bore sizes I mentioned just the .62 and .72
 
Posts: 272 | Registered: 12 June 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Rockerdog - Thanks for the good wishes. Yep, I was told by Tom Riehle, rangemaster for this event, that no rear sights are allowed. When I told him that mine had one he said, "well, we can take it off". NO WAY!! You see, this gun was made by "Spike" Hale about 1971, who was at the time one of the partners in Narraghanset Arms. He made this for himself and intended it to look like a "parts made gun". He told me this in a series of emails we exchanged after I had bought the gun. The rear sight has the dovetail peened to retain it, and I am concerned that removing it would mar the finish of what I consider to be a valued "vintage" gun that is representative of the work being done more than 30 years ago. So, the sight stays. Tom R said, upon my explaining this, "well, we will figure something out"... No clue what that may mean, but I shall find out. I may have to borrow a gun with no rear sight...man, THAT will really mess me up big time!!

Yes, you are SO right...range time is it. I have a wonderful, private shooting place just 5 minutes from home and go there at least two, often three times a month. Thus, I have had lots and lots of time with my two rifles, but as this gun came to me at the beginning of our rainy season (REALLY rainy, this is a rainforest!), I have only had three chances to shoot it....not nearly enough, but all I could muster.

So, we shall see how this all turns out. I thank all you Lads for the tips, ideas, and encouragement.

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of andy*
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Hey Col. Boone,
could ya just put tape over the the sight, to "block it out'?
Andy


Follow me I am the Infantry
 
Posts: 668 | Location: Everson, Washington | Registered: 27 June 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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andy* - Not sure what they will have me do, but guarantee I will not take it off! Actually, I mis-stated the age of the gun - being made in 1971 it is now just more than 40 years old - already a "veteran" and looks like it! Though it functions perfectly, it has not had the very best care and has, therefor, developed a "proper patina" that no amount of artificial ageing could create. I don't want to mess with it!

Tape? Maybe....it is up to Tom Riehle, the Rangemaster. He understands the situation with the gun and I am sure will come up with something reasonable - or I sure hope so!

UPS just showed up and the nice man in the brown truck took away my guns (2) and equipment box, next to be seen in Lexington when I arrive in 12 days....most exciting. I can hardly wait!

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of andy*
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Well Col. Boone,
Sure sounds like you have a great gun. Hope to learn more of your load, as I have a new to me smoothbore as well.
I hope you have a good trip and excellent shooting to you.
Andy


Follow me I am the Infantry
 
Posts: 668 | Location: Everson, Washington | Registered: 27 June 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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andy* - Thank ye kindly, Sir. Looks to be a Grand Adventure ahead - shooting match at Friendship during Lore of the Laughrey, a few days to explore Kanta-ke, and then down to Martins to once again hold off the savages as they try to run us out of Powell's Valley...

I shall report.

Oh, for a bit on last year at Martins, check out the May/June issue of ML.... Enjoy.

Col Boone
 
Posts: 728 | Location: Volcano, Hawaii | Registered: 22 September 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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