Walking Crow, I agree with you on the auccracy part. Beingable to hit a vital spot is most definately a major factor in 1 shot kills. I have harvested deer with everything from a 22 to a 12 ga. and most were 1 shot kills. Here is a true story. A number of years back during the modern gun season , I shot a nice buck with a 30 06 150 gr lead tipped round. That deer ran over 300 yards before bleeding out. When I dressed the deer , I found my shot had made hamburger meat of the heart, you cant do much better than a heart shot now folks, and that dadburned deer ran ovor 300 dead. What went wrong there? the best I can figure is that sometimes a perfect shot wont drop them in their tracks, who knows that is just the way hunting is sometimes. Come to think of it I have got about a 100 deer or so in my life, its been so long I cant remember when I had to shoot more than once, Im sure I have it just dont happen very often. Like everybody else I have missed on occasion. When old arkansaw misses you better circle it on your calander, when it comes to deer that is a rare thing. My policy is wait for the good shot, and SHOOT. yours Arkansawwind

Let's face it; talking about deer and "stopping" power is a little bit absurd on it's face. Big calibers vs smaller calibers simply don't make that much difference if the shot is placed properly. I've had better success with deer dropping in their tracks with the .22 Hornet and .250 Savage than with my heavily loaded 45/70 and 400 grain bullets. Deer simply don't have enough mass to take advantage of heavy calibers. Stoppers-what Jeff Cooper called "crumplers"-don't come into their own until you get to big stuff: grizzly, lion, elephant, etc. Deer don't need "stopping"; they just need "dropping". Remember it only takes seconds-three jumps-for a deer to travel 75 yards.

I've been hunting deer for about 60 some odd years, hogs for about 45 years. I've killed a few of each along the way. Like Arkansaw, I've killed them with .22 Rimfire to 12 gauge Slugs. I've had far more run than flop at the shot. When I need to drop one in it's tracks, both shoulders, or neck is where I aim. Head shots are tricky. I had a 160 grain bullet from a 7MM Remington Magnum glance off the head of an Axis doe. She went down in a heap with a good chunk of her skull missing. The bullet did not penetrate the brain. As far as I'm concerned "stopping power" is grist for the gun writers. Bullet placement is the true "stopping power"

My 2¢ worth.

Stopping power is a myth given to those who buy guns, by those who write about them.

quote:

Originally posted by Mitch:
SHOT PLACEMENT,shot placement,Shot Placement...did anyone mention Shot Placement?....I don't care how big you go, if you can't hit'em in a "kill zone", it won't matter...dead is dead--whether it be from a .22lr or a 2bore, it falls back on SHOT PLACEMENT

Yeah we did.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by Chief Kicks a Hole in the Soup:
Stopping power is a myth given to those who buy guns, by those who write about them.

Stopping power is measured by how quickly a customer stops and whips out his credit card or check book after swallowing the 'stopping power' myth of the latest big boomer in the stores.

Stopping power is usually a term that is reserved for large dangerous game where killing is 2nd on the list and stopping the aninal from getting any closer is 1st, with most any ML cal. killing is a matter of matching the game with the cal. and effective range, and making a good shot.

Stopping power is an overrated crutch for folks who cannot/will not practice enough to make a proper shot placement. It makes sense when facing dangerous charging game because shot placement [still very critical] is offhand and hurried.

Chief has heard this song many times as the wailing of some squaw left to fend for herself because her brave relied on falsehood and shot the wrong buffalo in the wrong place.
I read of a man named Newton who wrote down laws of motion and it appears he was correct. He said the force one feels against his shoulder is like the force of a bullet from the same gun. My long rifle does not knock me down.
Once on a rainy day I shot a deer as dusk settled. The bullet broke both legs of the deer and 5 ribs. The heart was completely separated from the arteries too, but the deer was not knocked down. It ran on broken legs for perhaps 30 yards before falling in the fading light and a large blackberry thicket. I should have shot that deer twice for I do not like blackberry thickets in the dark.
There is no knock down power. If the shot hits the brain or spine there will be no tracking to do, but not because the animal was knocked down.

quote:

I read of a man named Newton who wrote down laws of motion and it appears he was correct. He said the force one feels against his shoulder is like the force of a bullet from the same gun. My long rifle does not knock me down.

Well chief you must remember that the force going backwards from your or my rifle is spread out over the entire surface area of the butt as it meets the shoulder, while in my case the entire energy of the bullet impact is on a .530 diameter circle as it hits the deer.

And if you sit upon a log, and somebody jams you in the backside from behind with a vent pick..., you may jump up..., but the pick didn't knock you off the log, your nervous system reaction made you move.., which is the key, and we're back to shot placement.

LD

Newtonian physics and external ballistics theory.Some of my favorites.
But as an aside ,a 150grain Spire point in 308 win did not expand after hitting a white tail at 75yards. Said deer didnt fall down on the spot,but as with the Moose it didnt go far. If you hit them in the right spot within the limits of the gun/rifle you are using ...they die.
As stated above "stopping power" is something you need when you get into large and dangerous
game and you need it now.

In the October Bevel Brothers column in MB, knockdown or stopping power is discussed. They cite one formula for 'knockdown power' developed by an elephant hunter at the turn of the century. The basic formula was bullet weight in grains/7000 times caliber in inches times velocity in fps. (BTW, the Brothers point out some important factors the formula doesn't take into account that make it pretty questionable for trying to compare roundball to elongated bullets.) However, it might be good enough for comparing different calibers of roundball to other roundball at different velocities and getting a feel for their relative performance, which I think was the original question in the thread.

Using some examples from the article a 50 cal roundball at 1800 fps had a 22.3 "knockout value", 50 cal rb at 1200 fps had a 15 'kv' and at 62 at 1260 had a 38 knockout value. Now, for those numbers to mean anything, the shot placement has to be right, or else the charging grizzly bear better be a math major and understand that if he got hit by a knockout value of 50, he's supposed to die quickly.

I've come to a conclusion,put the correct size projectile in a vital spot on any thing that walk's,flies,or crawls on it's bellie and it will STOP,lay down and be dead or die. Theory is good but results are better.
First day of der season today.4am,45deg.wind NW at 20 and swirling,overcast going to rain later and get to 60deg. Now that is STOPPING POWER,stopped me from going out all day.Going to lay up,read and work some on projects.Full moon later in Nov so the rut should be good.Scouted the past week,found one scrape,havnt seen a deer most of the summer and none this fall.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Walking Crow,

ballistic theory is just that THEORY... I have seen deer hit good, hit hard, that have walked away, others gut shot that fell over like they were hit by a train.
To improve you 'odds', use enough lead to get the job done, and be accurate enough to put the ball in the right spot, the rest is up to god...

Mr. Loyalist Dave,

I do not tolerate vent pick pricks well, but I do not jump off of logs when it occurs. It does not occur often.
There will follow a brief pow wow on similes. If one compares decent people to politicians using the words 'like' or 'as', it is a simile. It is like comparing apples to oranges. A very strange man from California told me that one day near Wolfville when he said the weather was like Hades.
Mr. Newton was not referring to how the force presents to either party of the event. He said F=MA. The force is balanced, for Mr. Newton also said for every reaction there is an opposite and equal reaction.
I think many of you are correct though, it is not the size of the ball that matters, but where the ball strikes.

quote:

Mr. Newton was not referring to how the force presents to either party of the event.

Ah but you pointed out in the discussion that your rifle does not knock you down, and I pointed out that it doesn't hurt you as the backward force is dispersed over a wider area than the frontal force.

LD

Chief will go to the mountain in search of fire water.