Howdy all, I know that for distance and accuracy a rifle would be best. But I was wondering what you yahoos think would have the best stopping power at say between 30 - 60 yards, a good smoothbore or a rifle?
I would go with the smoothbore, 90 grains of 2f at least .58 cal. Mind you, that is a guess cause I haven't had the chance to stop anything yet!

Stopping power is all relative. Bell used to make one shot kills on elephants with a 7x57. Then there are people who can't put a deer down
with one shot from a 300 Mag.
Factor in projectile weight and speed to get your ftlbs then take it from there.
Its the old "would you rather be hit by a slow bowling ball or a super fast needle?"

All things being equal in terms of ball diameter & weight and velocity, shot placement should give the edge to the rifle. A 570 RB propelled by 90 grains powder might have a little more velocity if the rifle were patched tighter, would have spin from the rifling, and might be placed a bit more precisely out around 50 yards, with some of that placement precision coming from the rifle having a rear sight. I don't see the spin contributing anything to stopping power. Now, if the question were a comparison of a 45 rifle vs 62 smoothbore, the results would get a bit more muddled, and you'd be scratching your head over Hatcher's Notebook and trying to extrapolate.

Do you have a particular threat or target in mind? The question might have a different answer if you're wanting to stop a grizzly bear or charging Redcoat versus wanting to stop a whitetail deer.

I was thinking mostly big game. Mulies, elk, bear... no Red Coats.
I guess it probably wouldn't matter between the two if they were the same caliber. Except, If I was hunting with the smoothbore I would probably have a .60 ball and four peices of buckshot.

I did double lung a moose several years back.It didn't drop on the spot but then neither did it go very far. That said I wouldn't have wanted to be in the situation of stopping a charge.
Guess I should add I was shooting a .62 cal smooth bore and the range was about 10 yards.
If I had to stop a charge at that range I would lean towards a 600 Nitro Expess

1 shot drops on elk at up to 100 yds. This from a .54 cal rifle. Unless I'm gunning for grizzly or a charging bison I can't see why I'd need any more stopping power.

quote:

Originally posted by sawbones:
I was thinking mostly big game. Mulies, elk, bear... no Red Coats.
I guess it probably wouldn't matter between the two if they were the same caliber. Except, If I was hunting with the smoothbore I would probably have a .60 ball and four peices of buckshot.

Check your hunting regulations RE: Buck 'n Ball. Even though it was an effective antipersonnel load against a line of advancing infantry a la Colonial era tactics it is almost useless against a single target a la deer, elk, bear.

Someone has recently done patterning tests with a .75 musket (Nominally 12 ga.) with buck'n ball. The buck 'n ball didn't even hit the 30" dia. pattern board reliably at 30 yds.

.62 cal. is 20 ga., so buckshot is marginal at best past 25 yards. If you're using a trade gun, smooth rifle or fowling piece, you'd be much more likely to hit a vital area, thus do lethal damage with a .60" round ball you could actually aim.

My $0.02

Three Hawks

You can't figure stopping power in my opinion. I've shot deer with .50 (.490) round balls and dropped them in their tracks. I've had hits in the same place at the same range and the deer will run 100 yards. My .30-06, .243, and .25-06 gave the same results. Only a hit to the CNS (head or spine) will instantly drop a game animal every time. Go with a rifle or fowler that you are confident you can put a ball in the kill zone every time. No deer will survive a hit through both lungs.

Well, I guess it kind of boils done to range and shot placement doesn't it. Because I'm a greenhorn probably can't offer a whole lot of help, but a deer in some state can be hunted with as small a cal. as a 22mag. Thus far the only deer I have harvested with a muzzleloader was a spike at about 20yards with a .50cal. As spikes go it went 129lbs, so it was a descent size,and I was young. Cold too, -13 at the time, not sure who was more suprised me or the deer when the gun went off. 4 hoofs in the air and no tracking. Got to love BP! A year or 2 after that hit one about the same size and it went 50-100 yards or so with a modern 30-06. Knock down power is probably why I like BP. For me shots are close so either would work, it's all on placement or distance I guess. As I see here, Smoothbores are a more versitile choice, but I guess if you have shots over 50 yards I guess a rifle would be my choice for my skills.

Stone River

Must agree with Woods Loper, stopping power is tough to predict. Far too many variables when it comes down to killing something. Accuracy is the only constant that we can count or improve on. Of course hitting exactly where you want is easier said than done but the game deserves our best. That being said, I was once face to face with a black bear sow with cub in tow. She did a quick trot at me to about 10 yards. I had a .54 T/C Renegade in hand but I'll admit my "accuracy" would have been a bit suspect if forced to shoot. Luckily she grew tired of my high pitched (yet manly) squealing and took her little one over the hill. Sure didn't want to shoot but didn't want to dance either!

Terminal ballistics only apply when you hit the target in a vital area. I'd rather have a gun that shoots really straight, AND be skilled myself at estimating range over uneven ground, first, before worrying about what happens at impact. I have sold firearms off an on for more than 30 years, and the yahoos who go for huge modern calibers for deer I have observed to be crappy shots, and try to compensate for their lack of marksmanship with physics. One of the foremost authorities on hunting in the previous century, a man who Teddy Roosevelt (no slouch as a hunter himself) chose to be his guide, loved and recommended the .44-40 cartridge for mule deer.

Inexperienced shooters when looking at a target over ground that is visible, over estimate the range, and when looking over ground that is not visible, under estimate the range.

I have 20 gauge smoothbores, because the price was really good for all three. I would like to have gotten them in 28 gauge, and use a .530 ball. Oh well economics is what it is. A .58 (24 gauge) is fine, but omit the buckshot in either case, 20 or 24, as all it will do is increase the mass of your load at firing, thus decreasing the muzzle velocity, while not increasing the mass at impact as many of the buck shot will probably not impact the target and will be moving slowly too.

The rifle has two advantages..., it is more accurate, but that doesn't really factor in until you get past 50 yards for most folks. In wooded terrain a rifle may allow you better shot placement around brush, if that is a problem, and you have practiced with it enough.

You hunt with a traditional muzzleloader, you have to get good at hunting, as well as marksmanship. I thought I was good, then I read The Still Hunter by Van Dyke. (He's the guide mentioned above) In my humble opinion, at any age if you haven't read this guy, and you hunt, you're cheating yourself. I used to go out about a total of 14 days each year. Maybe I'd get a deer; maybe not. NOW, it's rare that I don't see deer, and I get more than one per season. I'm the student; the credit goes to the teacher who had passed long before he taught me.

LD

"stopping power" is somewhat nebulous--usually described in terms of MV and ME, it really has to do with the size of wound channel and an accurate hit in a vital area--that is bullet diameter, wound diameter, V&E at the target. MLers with rd balls are poor at delivering V&E at ranges over 50-75 yds until one reaches the larger bores. Smoothbores are poor at accuracy and precision shooting over ~50 yds as compared to the worst rifles. So, for 'stopping power' I personally would choose a large bore rifle--say .58 or .62 for examples. You may not NEED that kind of power, but that is what you asked for...I sold my .58rifle and hunt with a .54 rifle--my .62 is a smoothbore fusil I use mainly for living history demos...

Best stopping power = shot placement rifle or smoothbore makes noo differance IMMHO.Put the bullet in the correct place and the hunt is over.I wouldn't get overly concerned with stopping power till I got good enough to put the bullet where it HAS to be.Some are alllllll to taken with firepower and forget MARKSMANSHIP/ABILITY.
Dont want too interupt the subject however>>
P.S. source for lead free shot 00,BB 2,4,6,for the restricted areas.Ballistic Products, N. Corcoran MN. 1-888-273-5623 www.ballisticproducts.com Just read about this in American Rifleman pg 38

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Walking Crow,

Same ball size no difference.
But the rifle will place the shot more precisely and this can have an effect.
With typical loads for a bore size, giving 1600 fps or so killing power will be ball park.
However, differences in the individual animal's stamina can make one seem better than the other in limited testing. Some animals just don't know when to fall down.

Dan

One more thing about stopping power.
Unless the spine or brain is effected deer tend to run about 40-50 yards then fall. I have shot or seen shot quite a few deer, 150-200 maybe. With a lot of different calibers and cartridges.
Loaded to original ballistics the 38-40 makes very poor wound channels at 40+- yards (based on one deer shot with a BP and lead bullet loaded 38-40) but will stop a deer in about 40 yards with a lung shot. I would not use it again though due to the pencil sized wound channel. But so will a 50 caliber round ball, all the way to 150 yards at least. 30-06, 6.5x55 etc etc about the same. Deer are not hard to kill. 22LR will do it with lung shots, I am told, but they are very hard to STOP.
If the spine is shocked they drop, a friend killed a doe at 120 yards with a 45 RB last year and the deer went down in its tracks. He figured that the ball breaking a rib on both sides shocked the spine. (Yeah nobody told the deer 120 was too far for a 45 rb)
Now this 40 yard run rule is not a hard one. Some will go down quickly, some will run 200 yards with identical shot placement. When this happens people like to jump on the "poor stopping power" band wagon when the deer might run just as far shot with a 7mm mag (yeah seen it).
Place the shot well and stopping power will take care of itself. If you MUST stop the deer quickly you need a much bigger ball, .66 or bigger.
ME has very little to do with it unless shooting something like a 25-06 with light bullets that expand violently and then there is significant meat loss in many cases.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by sawbones:
Howdy all, I know that for distance and accuracy a rifle would be best. But I was wondering what you yahoos think would have the best stopping power at say between 30 - 60 yards, a good smoothbore or a rifle?
I would go with the smoothbore, 90 grains of 2f at least .58 cal. Mind you, that is a guess cause I haven't had the chance to stop anything yet!

You have received some good advise.

If you want stopping power, ya gotta go bigger. IMHO, a lot bigger. I shot an average size whitetail at about 30 yards that piled up against an oak tree about 20 yards away after being hit with a .715 ball pushed by 90 gr FFG. The hit was a little high, passing through both shoulder blades, but a solid hit that "should" have stopped the deer in its tracks. Didn't though.

As mentioned in earlier posts, good marksmanship combined with good woodcraft will put meat on the table. Poor marksmanship, especially combined with poor woodcraft will only result in either a good day outdoors, or a lousy day hunting...depending one one's attitude.

God bless

Having had practical experience with the human nervous and respiratory systems as relates to survivability and release of power, I can't help but think small positional variations in a deer's body (when struck) have something to do with whether or not they run a ways or drop quickly. Just as important is whether the deer is inhaling or exhaling. It has always been quite easy for me to knock a man down at the instance he inhales, but not so easy at the moment of exhalation. I know for a fact that the position of the tongue inside the mouth can determine (markedly) the level of strength, as well. There is also scientific evidence that appears to support this theory.

This would indicate (to me) that within reason, the caliber is a minor rather than major player. Shot placement is paramount and the rest is basically, well, luck. IMHO as long as a prb hits hard enough to make it through the vitals, a .45 and a .54 are more or less apt to do the same job on a deer. If either is stopped prematurely all bets are off.

Gents, I have been following this thread as it has developed. There have many interesting theroies mentioned, and I agree with many of them as being a determining factor.The basic question was (wasnt it) which has more stopping power ie knockdown power. A light or a heavy bullet. My comment will hold true whether we talk about blackpowder or modern firearms, reguardless of the propellent used, black powder or modern smokless powder. My opnion is that the heavier projectle has the most stopping power, while bullet speed (feet per second) is a factor, scientific tests have determined a heavy bullet traveling slower( in some cases a whole lot slower) has more knockdown that the lighter, the key as I understand it is SHOCKING POWER, a heavy bullet has more shock when it hits whatever critter its shot at , and tyhis is amajor factor in killing power. Bigger bullets shock a lot more ex 150 gr vs a 300 gr projectle, the 300 gr hits a whole lot harder well over 50 % harder than the 150 gr. Shocking power equals killing power, the more shock the more effective it kills. well theres my 2 cents worth yours arkansawwind

SHOT PLACEMENT,shot placement,Shot Placement...did anyone mention Shot Placement?....I don't care how big you go, if you can't hit'em in a "kill zone", it won't matter...dead is dead--whether it be from a .22lr or a 2bore, it falls back on SHOT PLACEMENT

Anyone on this site have a 4 ga Elephant ML we have deer in Maine that top 250 lbs field dressed and I sure dont want to take a chance that I will be under gunned when that Saber toothed,carnivor,claws digging,charging,antles down,blood in it's eyes, looking to gore out my innards out,deer and I lock up in a Death struggle.After I have shot it,thrown my hawk at it,then lock up with my favorite hair lifting Green River indian sticker,maybe even having to resort to choaking it to death with my bare hands,biting it's throat out just to survive.
Learn to shoot THEN GO HUNTING.See a beef shot in the head with a 22 cal rifle,dropped like it was hit by lightening,stone,graveyard dead,weighed 1500 lbs on the hook.
If you can't shoot ACCURATELY,stay home.
Most years I eat venison and it was shot by me, with a 45 cal capper with round ball pushed by 65 grain of FFF out of a 39 1/2 " barrel from a CVA Kentuckian that was given to me 26 years ago. You will NEVER,NEVER,NEVER,over come POOR MARKSMANSHIP with FIREPOWER,EVER!!!!!!!!!!!
In the words of Eckert Tolle: Life isn't as serious as my mind makes it out to be.