Here's a question for Mike Nesbitt:
I appreciated your excellent article on the Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken Rifle, in which you wrote that it is "certainly the closest to an actual Hawken of any production rifle."
Here's the question: Is it closer to the Real McCoy than the Uberti Santa Fe Hawken or the Navy Ithaca Hawken?
I bought a Pedersoli a few months ago after being unsuccessful at trying to purchase one of those rifles (which as I recall was the same thing made by the same company but are no longer being made).
I'd like to hear your opinion on this.
P.S. Pedersoli recommends using a .535 ball in its .54 caliber Rocky Mountain Hawken. But when I went to sight-in the new rifle, a .535 ball simply was too big for the bore. However, a .530 ball fit perfectly.
At any rate, Mike, keep up your good work!

Mad Dog; Why am I not surprized with what ball would and would not fit. I have the Pedersoli/Cabelas Blue Ridge rifle in 54 cal and found precicely the same thing. I'm now using .530 balls with a 0.015" patch. Load fast and aim slow.

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Is it closer to the Real McCoy than the Uberti Santa Fe Hawken or the Navy Ithaca Hawken?

'Dog, No, I don't think the new Pedersoli is any closer than those others. In fact, I think (and I'm really guessing at this) the new rifle is basically a copy of those older guns you mentioned. Also, let's remember that the original Hawken rifles were individuals, made one at a time, that shared common features. They were not alike as pins. Modern production techniques make today's guns much more alike. What I'm getting to is that if you want a real good Hawken copy, you'd best go to Track of the Wolf or to a custom gun maker. A custom maker can copy a specific Hawken for you. Shoot sharp's the word, Mike

'Dog, Also look at the Hawken kits available from Don Stith and his St. Louis Plains Rifle Company. His website address is www.donstith.com/. Shoot sharp, Mike

Maddog,
If you dig into the Uberti website, under "what's new" or "new products" or something, they are actually listing the Santa Fe Hawken again. I don't know if they're easily available in the USA, and I don't know how they stack up to the older ones. They claim they're making the old ones again, so one hopes they're just as good. But who knows? I had one of the Santa Fe Hawkens, which shot a .526 better or easier than a .530, and I really liked it. I didn't know as much then as I do now, but I'm guessing they represented a copy of a late-model Hawken plains rifle, more-or-less fully-evolved. If I weren't heavily into flintlocks and an earlier period, I'd try to get one again myself.
Good hunting.
Well, oops, I just tried to find them myself, and they no longer list the Santa Fe Hawken in the new products, either. Fooey.

Dick

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dick,

I must appologize for not responding sooner. It's certainly disheartening when we discover we just invented the wheel, again. I say this because though Petersoli recommends the .535 ball for their Blue Ridge rifle, like yourself, I also discovered it preferes the .530 ball and a 0.015" patch.

The first batch of balls I was shooting were .535's and they were doing fine but the second box wouldn't load. I had to switch to .530's to get the gun to shoot. That first box of .535 balls I later discovered measured .532 to.535" The second box of .535's measured .534 to .537 whereas the .530 balls measured .529 to .532 in. That was the first time I ever ran into size problems with name brand round balls. In any event, the .530 balls worked the best. Load fast and aim slow.

the closest factory hawken, is the 1978 ithaca made by ithaca. ithaca sold to navy arms, then navy arms sold it to pedersoli,, and the made changes along the way. the 1978 ithaca is an exact copy of Kit Carsons Hawken. and i have one of these 1978 real ithacas, and ive seen kit carsons. oh yeah ithaca only made it that one year.

Hey karwelis, Watch out when you say "exact copy" because while the Ithaca and the Carson guns might cast similar shadows, exact they really ain't. There are big differences in the locks and breech plugs as well as other pieces of hardware. Back when Ithaca introduced their Hawken, they also offered the gun in kit form. The kits came with a detailed book of instructions on how to fit and finish the gun. I wrote that instruction book. Shoot sharp, Mike

I've heard the same thing about the GPR that it was the closest Hawken copy available. Suppose to be a great shooter, too. What's the real lowdown on the GPR?

Well I heard that the Uberti Hawken was the most authentic!
Moot point, since they're all gone...

Dick

Why so much good stuff doesn't last very long is a real puzzle to me.

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I've heard the same thing about the GPR that it was the closest Hawken copy available.

Hanshi, Yes, it is the closest to the original Hawken when compared to just the other over-the-counter guns. But it is still not a copy of a Hawken. Other than that, the Lyman rifles perform pretty well. Shoot sharp, Mike

Hello guys. I haven't seen the Pedersoli Hawken though I am told it is very impressive.

I have a Hawken by Uberti which I believe pre-dates the Santa Fe and I would apreciate any information you might be able to dredge up from your long memories.

The serial number is 817 and the build quality is excellent down to the german silver escutcheons,forend cap and foresight blade and iron hardware. The stock appears to be maple.
The calibre stamped on the breech is .54 but the bore is actually .53 - takes a .52 ball and pillow ticking patch for a good tight fit.

When I bought this about 9 years ago at a gun fair there were some sketchy web references but these have since long gone.
As I remember it Allen Arms Manufacturing (or similar name) of Santa Fe, who also marketed Western Arms guns, had requests from customers in the 1970's for a Hawken rifle. The Masonic Lodge in Santa Fe had a Hawken donated by Kit Carson who had been a member (rifle since moved to a national/State museum(?)). They agreed that blueprints could be made. Allen Arms approached Uberti to make 1000 exact copies of the original but in .54 calibre. Uberti shipped them with Uberti and .54 stamped on the breech but mistakenly with the actual bore still .53 as per the blueprints (the way to identify that original custom order). Allen Arms were selling them for about $700-800 which proved a little too expensive for the market. A little later the young Uberti son who was running the USA side of the business thought Uberti could sell a cheaper version and they produced their own, the Uberti Santa Fe Hawken which they sold via their agents/importers. It looked similar, was stamped .54 and the bore was also .54. A good gun but not up to the quality of the Allen Arms special order.

Does this ring any bells with anyone?

Thanks,

Peter.

Peter, You've got it about right. That's also about the time when the top dog at Western Arms passed away. One little suggestion I'll make is that your estimated price on the rifle for the mid-70s is a bit high. For instance, a Green River Rifle Works copy of the S. Hawken was only $350 in 1974. (I bought one.) The Santa Fe Hawken didn't "hit the beach" here until after 1976. And, the place to get a .520" round ball mould is from Rapine. Shoot sharp, Mike

Yeah, I loved my Uberti Hawken, wish I still had it. Does anyone know where it is?
My memory says that Allen was in on the sale and distribution of the Santa Fe Hawken, too--his shop was in Albuquerque, and I remember visiting it some time way back then. I doubt if I was a buyer of one of the original 1000, especially since I bought it "in the white" and finished it myself. Mine did better with a .520 as well--in fact, Track of the Wolf was big on them (I think that's where I bought mine) and recommended either the .520 rb or a .526 or bigger with a mallet!

Dick

Mmm! The price of the GRRW Hawken was $350 in 1974. I paid $250 for my Sharon Gun Barrel Hawken kit in 1972. I paid $250 to have the kit built in 1974.

Load fast and aim slow.

Here' two more cents. The Ithaca Hawken I have is an excellent example of a late S. Hawken plains rifle. From the pictures I've seen of the Carson Hawken, it isn't an exact copy. There are differences in the butt plate, trigger guard, hammer, and breech plug snail. Also, the Ithaca has an aluminum nose cap and nickle silver escutcheons. The Carson Hawken is all iron mounted.

The Pedersoli and Uberti Hawkens are good replicas, but I think the Ithaca looks more "Hawken". Of course, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Mike, Dick, thanks for coming back to me on my request for info on the original Uberti/Allen Arms Hawken. I will keep all this with the rifle. Superb gun, gets admiring comments whenever I get it out.

Peter.

My guess on the LGP is that the barrel is much lighter than an original plains rifle. I wonder about the barrels of the other guns mentioned here, scaling down barrels has been a way to reduce weight for a long time on production guns, many of the originals had pretty heavy breeches and tapered to the muzzle, I have held an Ithica before but cannot recall the barrel profile.

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I have held an Ithica before but cannot recall the barrel profile.

TRG, They had a 1" straight barrel, by Douglas I believe. I still have the Ithaca my father assembled but I haven't had that barrel out of the stock in years. Shoot sharp, Mike