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Buying a smoothbore
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<mtnmike>
posted
Ok gents, I have finally gotten the money together to buy myself a smoothbore,now for questions:
(1) Is smoothbore considered a shotgun? if yes,
(2) What gauge/caliber for mostly deer hunting?
(3)Do you prefer shot or ball?
(4)how does a smoothbore differ in loading vs a rifle? I am not familiar with the needed,shot,wad,patch combos you gents speak of,there is Nobody in my area that uses BP anything,so I am blind at this.
As with my Flintlock,thanks to all for helping me understand the workings of it,I love the flintlock now and will use it always.
Please excuse my lack of understanding the concept of a smoothbore,but I am confident I have ask the right folks my questions.

Mike
 
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Booshway
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Yes a smoothbore relates to a shotgun . But they can also be built with more of a rifle stock and hardware , hence you have “smooth rifle “
As to loading .
If you shooting RB you have th choice of loading with a patch , just as you do with your rifle OR loading with wads and cards ,like you would if your loading the gun for shot . You just replace the shot with a round ball

When loading with shot , you load Powder , over the powder card , Cushion / wad, shot , then over the shot card ,.
There may be different combinations to that . It just depends on what you find you smoothbore likes . Some folks don’t use an over the powder card . Others like myself use the over the powder card but don’t use a wad .

As to what gage that depends on you and if your going to hunt deer with buck shot or not . If you are , most around here chose a 12 gage . But if your going to hunt deer with a RB and are choosing the smoothbore option for bird and small game , then 12, 14 , 16 20, 24 , and 28 gage as well as ,.410” if legal in your state for muzzle loading big game “ works just as well as any rifle in that caliber as all your doing is reducing the accuracy range by not having rifling.
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Yes a smoothbore is a shotgun.

The basic smoothbore of the 18th century, and the replicas today, are cylinder bore, meaning they have no choke to tighten the pellet pattern as it goes down range. So it's like shooting a modern shotgun made to shoot slugs from a plain barrel.

Popular gauges are 28 gauge (.530 caliber ball like a .54 rifle), 24 gauge (.570 caliber ball like a .58 rifle), and 20 gauge (.600 or .610 caliber ball like a .62 caliber rifle). Some folks do opt for even larger bores, such as 16 gauge, or .69 calbier like a French musket, or 12 gauge, or .75 caliber like a British musket, or even 10 gauge. They will all work for deer and for small game and birds.

When hunting deer you use a single lead ball. You can use buckshot in some places, but you have to be very close. Quite frankly I think it's better to use single ball even if you are allowed to use buckshot. The top three gauges/bores seem to be 28 gauge, 24 gauge, and 20 gauge, especially for deer hunting. I have two 20 gauge guns.

Another choice you may consider is if you want the gun to have a rear sight or not. Using a fusil to hunt deer was quite common, and many had a rear sight. Some matches for smoothbores prohibit such a sight, but..., that's up to you. If you are hunting more than target shooting, get the rear sight installed.

Because it's not a rifled barrel, your fusil will have less effective range than your rifle, but you should expect to be able to take deer out to at least 50 yards. If you work a lot with your fusil, you may be able to get it to shoot well enough for deer to as far out as 75 yards. I know a fellow in Western Maryland named Scott who takes deer with his fusil out to 90 yards, but I also call him "the wizard", so...

You will have to spend some range time, and develope a load for your gun. Unlike a rifle, most of us that shoot smoothbores, as far as I can tell, find that patching the ball like a rifle is not the most accurate method. I think that's because the patch doesn't fold up around the ball in a fusil like it does in a rifle where the grooves give the cloth a place to go and are consistent.

I like 70 grains of 2Fg with a 1/8" wad over the powder. Then I like to load a .590 ball, but I enclose the ball inside a paper tube that is made to slide easily, but snug, into my 20 gauge bore. That way it's consistent, and it holds the ball in place. My hunting buddy likes the 1/8" wad, but he loads a .610 ball all by itself, and puts a piece of crumpled up newsprint, or some tow, over top to keep the ball in place. In both cases the sprue (if there is one) is loaded "up" towards the muzzle. We find we get good accuracy out to 60 yards.

As for shot and birds, squirrels, turkeys, that's something for another day. I like to use a military style paper cartridge to hold the shot. There are lots of other considerations, so get your gun, and get it to shoot well for deer, and then tell us how you did.

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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quote:
Originally posted by mtnmike:
Ok gents, I have finally gotten the money together to buy myself a smoothbore,now for questions:
Smoothbores are outstanding, and much more versatile than a rifle...can be used for a wide variety of small and big game.
I've hunted 20ga and 28ga smoothbore Flintlocks heavily for a good 10+ years now taking doves, deer, squirrels, crows, and turkey with them...and when the day comes for me to start selling off my long guns, the smoothbores will be the very last to go.
Here's an excellent website by a fellow muzzleloader shooter / hunter Bob Spencer which I bookmarked years ago:

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html


Flintlock Rifles & Smoothbores
Hunt Like The Settlers
 
Posts: 1867 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 28 January 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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I recently bought a Chief's grade trade gun from North Star West. I'm new to flint locks and smooth bores so take this for what it's worth.

Loading a smooth bore is quite unlike a rifle. I've found that a looser fit of ball and patch is better than the tight loads that my rifles like.

The smooth bore also needs to have the fouling wiped out more often. I guess the lack of groves for the fouling to go into is the reason for this.

There are lots of possible options for loading a smooth bore; patches, wadding, cards, or not. It seems that every shooter and his gun prefer something different.

I haven't worked up my shot load yet but my gun is shooting well with 60 to 80 grains of 2-f, and a patched 600 ball. I am confident that I could kill deer or hogs at 50 yards with that load.

I haven't missed the rear sight. In fact I have placed first or second in our club smooth bore matches since I started shooting the Chief's gun. My scores are higher than other shooters who are shooting smooth rifles and rifled muskets. So the rear sight isn't necessary and I think it would be a distraction when wing shooting.

If you are looking for a source for cards and wads try Track of the Wolf
 
Posts: 51 | Location: North Texas | Registered: 26 October 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Take a look at this link, titled 'the versatile smoothbore':
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

Also, Eric Bye's recent book on 'Flintlocks' devotes 7 or 8 pages to smoothbores.

20 ga/.62 caliber is probably the most common bore size out there. NMLRA rules for smoothbore matches require a minimum of 28 ga/.54 cal in
some competitions. My experience has been that smoothbore shooters who know their guns hold their own against rifles out to at least 50 yards. After that, the combination of rifled barrel with rear sight starts to have accuracy advantages over a smoothbore that become
more apparent as the range increases.


Here's a health to the King and a lasting Peace. May Faction end and Wealth increase....Old Loyalist Ballad
 
Posts: 767 | Location: Panhandle Florida | Registered: 02 February 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<mtnmike>
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Roundball, Thanks for the link! Now the most important question: If you could only own One,which would it be 20 gauge or 28 gauge?

Thanks so much,


Mike
 
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Booshway
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Another thing you might concider is what cal rifle do you have if you have a 54 cal a 28 gauge might be good you can use a lot of the same accessories so you don't need a separate shooting bag and cleaning jags a such. Just a thought.


The best thing about owning a dog is that someone is happy when you get home.
 
Posts: 959 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 09 December 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Mtnmike, I am no authority on smoothbores but have owned a very nice one from TVM for several years. I ordered mine with a rear sight and am glad I did. It's not a smoothrifle; just a fowler with a rear sight.

They are extremely versatile but do have limitations. Accuracy up to 50 or 60 yards is almost a given. The cylinder bore barrels handle shot quite well; certainly well enough for 95% of shots presented. I get deer level accuracy with various patch ball loads and bare ball loads at these distances - I've put 8 shots in a 2.5" group at 50 yards with one load.

I highly recommend a .62 (20 ga). They don't require enormous amounts of lead or powder. A .600" lead ball weighs around 325 grains and hits like Thor's hammer. My next smoothy will be a 20ga NSW canoe gun. I've only killed one deer with my smoothbore and it fell in it's hoof prints. You can also shoot WW ball, as I do, and conserve your soft lead. Smoothbores don't replace rifles, IMHO, but they do make valuable additions.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3560 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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quote:
Originally posted by mtnmike:
Roundball, Thanks for the link! Now the most important question: If you could only own One,which would it be 20 gauge or 28 gauge?
Thanks so much, Mike
For the widest variety of possible game hunted, a larger bore gives more flexibility for the size of the shot charges that can be used. And that gets more important as the size of the pellets used get larger, so a larger shot charge can be used to keep the pellet count (better pattern) up a little better...so as much as I love both the 20 and 28 gauges, if I could only have one, it would have to be the 20ga.


Flintlock Rifles & Smoothbores
Hunt Like The Settlers
 
Posts: 1867 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 28 January 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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You've received a lot of very good advice in the posts above, but I'll throw in a few comments anyway. Choice of a smooth bore will be influenced by you historical interest (persona). I have a northwest gun from North Star West and I love it. I tend to use it much more than my rifle. I chose 24 gauge because of my period and area of interest. I use it to hunt deer and grouse. For grouse I use 72 grains of 2ff powder- that's what my antler measure came out to- followed by a over powder wad then the same volume of #6 shot. If I'm using pre-measured shot loads I'll measure my shot with an 80 grain measure. I don't want more powder than shot per volume. Follow that with an over shot wad. If I'm feeling old-timey I'll wad with old wasp nest. A grouse cannot get through that pattern at 30 yards. For deer I use the same powder charge behind a .562 ball. Experiment with patching. I prefer a little looser fit that I use with my rifle.
Shoot a lot of paper. That's how you will learn your hold. If I could only have one gun it would probably be my smoothbore. If I were an easterner it would probably be a fowler rather than a northwest gun and if I liked hunting turkeys it would be a 12 gauge.
Mike Nesbitt had a very good article in the muzzleloader magazine once on shot loads and loading shot, but I can't remember the issue, but I'll bet he can.
 
Posts: 507 | Registered: 14 August 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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March/Apri, 2013. Hey, I remembered!! And thanks for thinking about it. Shoot sharp, Mike
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 25 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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I like fowling pieces, too. But just an FYI: The Northwest Gun was becoming standardized by the 1770s, and was traded all over the "Old Northwest" and beyond by 1800, if not well before. It is not a western gun by any means! It was carried in one form or another from eastern Ontario down into the Ohio country and as far west as Minnesota, before Lewis and Clark's little jaunt. Don't rule it out.

Dick


"Est Deus in Nobis"
 
Posts: 2902 | Location: Helena, Montana | Registered: 10 December 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Plus, NW guns are light and look really cool.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3560 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<mtnmike>
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Guys,,I appreciate everybodys imput! Have a couple picked out ,,now got to figure WHICH 1????
 
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Booshway
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Dick, I know the evolution of the northwest gun, but I don't believe they were as common with eastern settlers as the were with natives. It's a persona thing, they were common with western trappers, especially Indian and mixed bloods like me. Also the time thing refers to the markings on the gun and some other characteristics. A Barnett lock with the tombstone fox would probably have been built after 1821. Before that Barnett built guns for the Northwest Co. There have been reports of Barnetts with the tombstone fox prior to 1821. Charles Hansen believed they were HBC trial guns or old stock. After the 1821 merger of the HBC and NW Co. Barnett made guns for the HBC. As I said, It's a time and place thing. My interest is the rocky mountain fur trade from 1820 through the mid 1830s. My gun has the lock stamped "Barnett", with the tombstone fox, the butt plate being nailed on and the tang screw coming up from below places it prior to 1830. The HBC traded hundreds of these guns. All the fur traders did, but with differences. If I were from the mid-west or great lakes country I would have earlier interests and a circle fox on my gun. If I were going for pre-7 year war period I would go for a light musket, maybe North Star west's Early English. My wife has a canoe gun built on the early English and it's really cool. She might need it in case Fort Michilimackinac ever has to be re-taken. If I was from the south east I would probably go with a Carolina gun from Clay Smith. For me it's about period of interest and place.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: scoundrel,
 
Posts: 507 | Registered: 14 August 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Sounds as if Scoundrel really knows his stuff. I'm more of a generalist. I do know that makers often copied HBC guns or NWC guns, even using bogus stampings, etc. in order to take advantage of presumed quality of construction.

As far as gauge/caliber, I think about anything goes, though most seem to have been around 20-24-gauge. I have a 24-gauge Chief's Grade Gun from North Star West, 41" barrel, which, to the uninformed, can pass for a generic militia fowler. I've gone through a 12-gauge and a 20 gauge trade gun in the past. Wish I still had one. I'm also partial to French style fowlers, like the Fusil de Chasse, etc. and the English style fowlers, too. Can't own them all!

Dick


"Est Deus in Nobis"
 
Posts: 2902 | Location: Helena, Montana | Registered: 10 December 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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I was taught there are basically two "trade guns". The most common was the one made most often by Barnett, which sported the famous steel, D trigger guard, and the cast brass sideplate. The earlier version, sometimes called a Carolina Gun, had a brass trigger guard, and an engraved sideplate. IF you are worried about a persona, and you are East of the Applachians, I was taught that the earlier, English gun is probably more correct, not the Barnett. Even after 1800, the Barnett was probably mostly found West of the Applachians, and West of the Mississippi as the 19th century wore on.

Not sure if that's correct though.

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Scoundrel, The Northwest Company also used the Tombstone fox but with different initials. They used "I.B." So did the American Fur Company, with initials I.A. (or J.A. for John Astor). And Henry Leman used the Tombstone Fox as well, using the initials P.A. possibly for Pennsyvania. The tombstone fox was in use by HBC at least by 1790 and others were very quick to imitate that mark. Shoot sharp's the word, Mike
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 25 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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mtnmike, Before making your decision you may benefit from checking out Caywood Gunmaker's website, Some beautiful guns there.
 
Posts: 507 | Registered: 14 August 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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