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barrel choices for a leman kit
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Greenhorn
posted
hello the fire. I have been talking to TVM about a leman kit. not sure what barrel to go with ,was thinking 50 cal. 36" long 1" across the flats. does any one have this combo? dont want it to heavy would 15/16 be better ? I mostly shoot targets off hand and bench rest, thought a little heavy would be good ? What would most of the leman trade rifles going west have had for barrel length ,width, and caliber in the early leman years? i would like to keep it period correct as possible.
 
Posts: 9 | Registered: 21 August 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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This may help a bit. I'm no expert on these things. I was under the impresion that the Lemans started out w/ longer barrles of smaller cal. As time went on and the westward expansion was more on the move (later fur trade) the barrles got a bit shorter and the cal. got bigger. Others will be able to give better info I'm sure. Let us know what you decide. Best regards. Rockerhound

http://www.prospector-utah.com/leman.htm
 
Posts: 1128 | Location: Iowa | Registered: 15 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
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I have little historical knowledge about the Lemans but can offer advice on the barrel. A .50 x 7/8" barrel is heavy enough for that caliber without being muzzleheavy. IMHO 36" is ideal for such a barrel. It won't be muzzle heavy and will handle wonderfully. As one of the kit choices I'm trying to decide on, I'm really liking the idea of a .54x15/16"x36" Leman. For a .50 I'd want a 7/8" barrel.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3559 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
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Oh, and welcome to the campfire, kenny-g. This is the best place I know of for such advice. Get that Leman and make good smoke.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3559 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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thanks for the replys rockerdog and hanshi. i have been wanting to do this for a long time, finally put togather the funds,this will also be my first flint gun.I have been shooting a caplock i put together with my dad back in the 70's . looking forward to to doing this build with my two boys,and want to get it as right as i can.
 
Posts: 9 | Registered: 21 August 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Dick
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Kenny,
The 1" barrel would be more solid for target shooting, etc. but a bit heavier, of course, for lugging around in the woods. Might give you more accuracy if you have enough upper-body conditioning to hold it on target!
I shot, long ago, a friend's half-stock plains-style rifle he made with a 1" Douglas barrel--Maybe even thicker--in .45, and that thing was rock-solid.

Dick


"Est Deus in Nobis"
 
Posts: 2902 | Location: Helena, Montana | Registered: 10 December 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Kenny, I'd say go for the Leman with the .50 caliber 1" X 36" barrel. The 1" wide barrel gives the rifle a better profile and most Leman trade rifles were made with the heavier barrels. I have a couple of Lemans from TVM in .50 caliber with 36" barrels, 1" wide and I'm seriously thinking about getting another one. My reason for getting another is because I didn't build the two that are already here and I want a fancy one, artificially striped, checkered and engraved. Flintlock, for sure. Shoot sharp, Mike
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 25 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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dick, rock solid sounds really good !
mike, I was hoping to hear from someone who had a leman with that barrel,I think that's what i'll go with. keep those trade gun articals comin , can't ever hear enough about them.
 
Posts: 9 | Registered: 21 August 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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quote:
keep those trade gun articals comin , can't ever hear enough about them.


Thanks, Kenny, just keep reading. There is a trade gun story in the works! Shoot sharp, Mike
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 25 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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I have a GRRW Leman full stock that I assembled from a kit back in 1979. It has 30" barrel, 1-1/16" across the flats and .54 caliber. That 30" barrel makes a really handy rifle to carry and handle and easy to shoot off hand. One of the most accurate ML's I own. I have ML's with longer barrels, but this is my favorite to hunt with.


Phil Meek
 
Posts: 78 | Location: Denver | Registered: 19 August 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Meek, Those GRRW fullstock Lemans were some, for sure. I got to review one back in those days. Very good rifles!! Shoot sharp, Mike
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 25 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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Thanks, Mike. I added the post about the short Leman to point out that if weight is a concern, kenny-g doesn't have to go to a smaller diameter barrel. He can opt for a shorter one instead.

kenny-g, in response to part of your original question, the book FOR TRADE AND TREATY has a couple 1850's Lemans pictured in it and give detail measurements on each rifle. The barrels are a nominal 1" across the flats. And unlike many of the trade rifles of the time, these two are straight octagon rather than slightly swamped or tapered. Unfortunately, these two examples may illustrate the outliers as for as bore size. One has a 0.375" rifled bore and the other has a 0.575" smooth bore.

Hanson, in his THE PLAINS RIFLE, states that Leman calibers ranged from .50 to .65. He talks about two examples in the Museum of the Fur Trade collection that are .57 and .56 caliber. The larger caliber one is a nearly new specimen. He also mentions that Leman made some rifles which were stamped "Bear Rifle", and the specimens that Hanson had examined averaged .58 caliber. You could go with either .50, .54, or .58 caliber and fit right in there.

As Mike has often pointed out on this board, Leman had a long career from the 1830's to the 1860's or so. His early rifles were traditional Kentucky's. His early trade rifles closely follow the Lancaster pattern very similar to Henry, Gibbs, Dreppard, Fordney, Gumpf, and others. James Gordon, in his excellent three volume set on trade guns/rifles, states that these early Leman rifles tended to have long barrels (typically 38") with typical Kentucky-style patch boxes. By the 1850's, he started using a smaller oval, 4-screw cap box, then later used the rounded, 2-screw with the fleur-de-lis finial we've come to identify with Leman. These later Leman trade rifles tended to have shorter barrels, some as short as 30-32".

Mike, I'm sure you've seen the Chief's grade Leman flintlock in Gordon's book and the other Chief's grade flintlock in Wilson's THE PEACEMAKERS. Are these what you had in mind for your next Leman build?


Phil Meek
 
Posts: 78 | Location: Denver | Registered: 19 August 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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quote:
Mike, I'm sure you've seen the Chief's grade Leman flintlock in Gordon's book and the other Chief's grade flintlock in Wilson's THE PEACEMAKERS. Are these what you had in mind for your next Leman build?


Meek, Yes, the .50 Chief's grade in Gordon's book especially. However, I will make certain changes, following that rifle as a guide but not trying to actually copy it. For instance, I want my next Leman to use ramrod pipes from a Northwest gun, as seen a page or two earlier in Gordon's book. I'm also going to use the 4-screw oval patch box which, as some suggest, is earlier than the 2-screw design. The artificial striping, checkering, and engraving will follow the example of that Chief's grade along with the silver inlay on the bottom of the stock. This rifle will be a .52 caliber with a 35" barrel. So far no tacks are anticipated... Shoot sharp, Mike
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 25 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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that's a lot of good info meek, thank you. I had also considered a 54cal. in 1" that seams to be a real popular caliber,it would also lighten the barrel a little, but Burning a little less powder made the 50. look like the thing to do.
 
Posts: 9 | Registered: 21 August 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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kenny-g, I've read a lot pros and cons on calibers like the .58 has more mass and makes a better hunting caliber while the .50 caliber is more economical to shoot and having less mass, means less recoil. These are all good points depending on what your primary use for the rifle will be. But it all boils down to personal preference. Many of us have a favorite caliber, and we can rationalize our choice with selective arguments, but it's hard to convince someone else that one caliber is really better than another unless we limit its use to a narrow criteria range. Go with what you like best.

Mike, when I read your description of your next Leman, those two rifles immediately came to mind. The one in Wilson's book even has a reinforced cock which I recall you prefer. I picked up on Gordon's description on those NW pipes, too. When you get 'er done, that will be a really sweet rifle. Not to get you off track, but have you ever seen one of Mike Brooks' Leman kits. They're probably pricy, but he has copied and actual 1850's Leman down to the nat's arse. He made castings of the actual hardware including the lock with Leman's stamp. I was visiting with him in his shop last year, and he had one in the white. Museum quality stuff. I've got too many projects lined up to keep me busy for the next several years, but if I was in the market for another Leman, I would pop for one of his.


Phil Meek
 
Posts: 78 | Location: Denver | Registered: 19 August 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Meek, if you can figure out how to post 'em, I'd enjoy seeing some pics of that GRRW Leman. I remember having a GRRW catalog back many, many years ago and I constantly drooled over that short heavy-barreled one you've got. Would love to see it again.
 
Posts: 721 | Location: TriCities, WA | Registered: 25 January 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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quote:
have you ever seen one of Mike Brooks' Leman kits.


Meek, To be specific, no, I haven't seen one of Mike's kits. However, I have seen pictures of his rifles in the Track catalog and I've met Mike. I also have one of his Leman trigger guards for a single trigger. Mike was our guest speaker at our Historical Gunmakers' Guild a few years ago. He gave an excellent talk about Leman and his business. While he was here he took a good look at my original Leman sporting rifle, he even took it apart to look for maker's marks. And I'd love to have one of his kits although I'd like to make it as a rifle from just a few years earlier.
Now, for variety even though I do favor the double-throated cock on a flintlock Leman, my next build will be fitted with the Chambers Late Ketland lock. That is a bit more like the lock shown on that particular Leman in the Gordon books. A good lock too.
And, like Dave asked, can you post pictures of your GRRW Leman? Folks need to see that gun.
Shoot sharp's the word, Mike
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 25 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Kenny, Please pardon us for "stealing" your thread about barrel choices. Here's hopin' you forgive us and enjoy the palaver. Now, let me add a couple of comments about a barrel for your Leman. First of all, if I had to choose one caliber it would be a .54. You don't need to shoot "hunting loads" all of the time. A .54 will perform very nicely with lighter loads and, as an example, I shoot my .54 with only 50 grains of FFg as a target load for targets at 25 yards. Then for a more standard target load, for use on trailwalks where targets are at various distances, I simply use 60 grains. With that 60 grain load, my rifle is a very sweet shooting piece. Of course, that load gets doubled for bear or buffalo.
Next, because you are ordering your kit from TVM, or planning to, I want to be sure you understand that the 36" and 42" barrels they advertise are only their standard barrel lengths. If you want a 32" barrel instead, just ask for it. They will either cut the barrel or order a 32" barrel for you. That will cost you just a bit more because it is an extra but if that's what you want, it's well worth it. As an example, the Leman pictured in the TVM catalog and on their web site has a 35" barrel. That gun is a .54, I took the picture, and that is a handy handling rifle. TVM uses standard barrel lengths the most, certainly, but you can easily get the rifle the way you want it, just ask Matt about your particulars. And remember, TVM won't even begin to get your kit ready until you order it, with the parts and particulars that you specify. Shoot sharp, Mike
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 25 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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I do enjoy the palaver, I like the look of a longer barrel dont think i would go shorter than a 36, thought about a 38 but didnt want it to nose heavy. probably will stick with the 36. U got me thinkin about a 54. especially if I start molding round balls.
 
Posts: 9 | Registered: 21 August 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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U got me thinkin about a 54. especially if I start molding round balls.


Kenny, In that case get a .54 and start casting your own round balls. Simple as that... And good doin's too. Shoot sharp, Mike
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 25 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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