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The decline of traditional black powder hunting & shooting
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Factor
Picture of Hanshi
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After reading Boartooth's post, I realized I should have mentioned that my post only referred to Jimbow's statement, "OH, and we make it too expensive too....".


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3559 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
Picture of Leonard
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I started out with the Lyman GPR and still think it's a good starting rifle for any newbie.

I would congratulate them on it, certainly not put them down for having one.

(I would suggest that they replace that #&@% adjustable rear sight.)

But the price is sure higher now than when I got mine three decades ago ... Eeker

And THAT might be part of the problem ... the cost now-a-days of getting even starting gear.

I can't believe the current prices on many of the items I already have ... sure glad I already have them !!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Leonard,
 
Posts: 46 | Location: Iowa | Registered: 28 November 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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I started out with a TC Renegade and didn't like it so replaced it with a Lyman GPR. Still have the Lyman and it's still a good gun. It's what I recommend to anyone wanting to get started. As Leonard says, replace the adjustable sight. No problem because they come with a fixed replacement. They are a bargain for the price and I don't think they are as expensive now as they were if you adjust for inflation. My wife's rifle is a Traditions and she shoots it well. She doesn't have the desire for a custom rifle to make the cost worth it. I have never heard any one condemned for using a factory gun at a rendezvous. We all use what we can afford, and most of us make most of our gear. One piece of advice that I've heard, and repeated to new participants is buy what you need to get started and don't buy anything else for a year. Otherwise they end up with a bunch of stuff they don't want, need or use. Most new participants will spend way more than they need to, often against the advice of others. Most of us that are serious about our outfits brain tan and make our own buckskins. Everything costs money but this hobby is cheaper than most. I've actually heard casual people say that it doesn't pay to cast your own balls, but for most of us it does. In-lines - they will not be welcome at any rendezvous I've ever been to. Traditional style guns, patched round ball.
 
Posts: 507 | Registered: 14 August 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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If a looky loo approaches my camp, I'm usually able to engage them in some conversation and if I'm not getting ready for a shoot at the time, I try to take some time to chat.

When recommending a muzzleloader to a newbie, it is always one of the following three, TC Hawken, Lyman Great Plains, or the TC Renegade. These three rifles are always welcome at muzzleloader doings providing it isn't one of the juried doings. Any of those three firearms will perform to perfection in the woods while hunting.

load fast and aim slow.
 
Posts: 1726 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 08 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Scoundrel; I stopped casting my own balls when my whole family started to shoot. I wasn't just about to be married to the casting pot just to keep my wife and son shooting. It was bad enough to clean all the guns that got dirty. I always cleaned my wife's rifle and pistol because after shooting, she started dinner so it was a good time to attack the dirty guns. Once my son got old enough, he had to clean his own rifle and pistol. During the 1990's we were shooting 6 guns a day at rondys.

Load fast and aim slow
 
Posts: 1726 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 08 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Boartooth; It's more difficult to get started and participate in some reenacter groups than others. The mountain men groups are a bit more open and the gear options are very wide ranged. On the other hand, if you're joining one of the military reenacting groups, the gear becomes much more narrow in scope, depending on the regiment and rank of the reenacter.

Load fast and aim slow.
 
Posts: 1726 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 08 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Re-enactor groups and rendezvous are two different things. Historical re-enactment is often an educational presentation to the public and should be as correct as possible It can be expensive and requires a deep commitment to study and self criticism and evaluation.
This hobby is so wide and varied that there truly is something for every one. You pick what level suits your interest and abilities. My wife and I like to go to rendezvous and have a lot of fun, but I am also involved in re-enactment, and she is to a much lesser extent.
 
Posts: 507 | Registered: 14 August 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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I suppose I should,at this point,explain where I'm coming from:I spent more than 10 years VERY involved in the SCA.My approach to this hobby is colored by my memories,and experiences in that Organization.I'm aware that you can be so immersed in reenacting that you don't really even see the mundanes wandering around in camp.That's ok,for some of the visitors.Others wish they could find out more,and just don't know how to find someone who can,or are willing to,help them get started.The only way we're going to get more folks involved,at whatever level they're comfortable with,is to be on the lookout for individuals that are interested beyond the casual "lookie loo" and steer them to sources of information.This can be hard,especially if you are tired and just want to relax,and enjoy the company of old friends.Whatever you can do to help generate interest in a potential newbie will help all out of proportion to the effort you put into it.
My reference to a guy with an in-line asking how to get started was an obscure reference to an experience I had when first getting started in the SCA:A young woman showed up to an event wearing spandex,and plastic lace.There were two sets of reactions;1. Some folks turned away in revulsion....2.Others immediately approached her,made her feel welcome,and GENTLY explained the difference between what we were doing,and a Fantasy Con.I subsequently saw her at events wearing appropriate garb,and demonstrating the results of extensive study.To my mind,someone showing up with an in-line might be a real attempt to "get started" and should be treated as such.
As far as expense,well yes,all hobbies are expensive.Some,like me,just have to slowly accumulate the stuff,and garb,to play with the rest of y'all.It gives the opportunity for study,to learn more about this hobby.
Thanks for listening to my opinion(and that's all it is).See ya later....


Beer is proof that God loves us,and wants us to be happy-B. Franklin
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: Oreegun Territory | Registered: 24 March 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hivernant
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Again, Sorry for the late response....
I should have said "WE" and not "YOU"....
Yes, the factory guns, the stitch counters, the dog soldiers....While its nice to have P.C. gear at every camp, its not always possible for the pilgrims to get into gear right off the bat...Maybe a "Newbie" area at 'vouis? Some place where they can camp and learn a bit more....sometimes the camp fees are a bit much too, if all you can stay is the weekend while paying for a whole weeks worth of camping....These are Just my thoughts, now.
If the new ones don't feel welcome, then I don't think they'll come back....


Keep inside the tree line, Don't let 'em know where yer bedded. Some have less than you do and my be inclined to try and take what little ya have.
 
Posts: 107 | Location: The Soviet Socialist state of Connectitax | Registered: 29 May 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hivernant
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Note TC, Green Mountain, Knight Rifles are all gone.
They pimped the new in lines as they are just a ML to make more and more sales.

THEY caused the decline that has killed them. TC gone now S&W no Traditional. Knight Rifle Gone, Green Mountain ML gone on the third or fourth owner who cares nothing about ML. Now just a modern barrel and .gov contractor.

TC and Green Mountain actively perverted our ML season with fighting for in lines and scopes. Our supposed great company's betrayed us traditional types all the way. IMHO NH should cancel all primitive seasons.
 
Posts: 109 | Location: NH | Registered: 05 July 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hivernant
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See Uncle...THATS the kind of attitude I'm talking about.....
If someone has only an interest in extending the hunting season, we will not convert them in anyway....If they have interest in muzzleloaders in general, they may start out with an inline and work their way back for fear of getting into something they may not like.....In-line, sidelock, flintlock....I know of guys who started this way....Hell, one of them LOVES matchlocks now...Go figure.....
If we make ourselves elitists, then eventually, we will be standing alone in camp watching our numbers dwindle.....
Now, I have said my piece...and will now GET OFF my soapbox and continue on with my thread browsing....


Keep inside the tree line, Don't let 'em know where yer bedded. Some have less than you do and my be inclined to try and take what little ya have.
 
Posts: 107 | Location: The Soviet Socialist state of Connectitax | Registered: 29 May 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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you can have those inlines , I'll take my sidelock any day do the drill and it allways fire
 
Posts: 95 | Location: Both alaska and washington state | Registered: 05 August 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Back in the '90's I was a police firearms instructor. I was talking with another instructor about muzzleloaders when he suddenly proudly tossed a new in-line into my hands.
My surprised reaction was as if he had handed me a live rattlesnake. I almost dropped it, but quickly handed it back to him.
Then I explained the difference between modern and traditional.

One thing that I've noticed ya'll have said about getting started is to get a relatively cheap Lyman, Traditions, or some such as that. Those more or less resemble a plains rifle, or Hawken, and that is fine.
However, what about the eastern guys who want to reenact the F&I or the Revolution periods? I haven't seen a decent longrifle or fowler for less than $1000. Even the kits are up there in the many hundreds of dollars.


Know what you believe in. Fight for your beliefs. Never compromise away your rights.
 
Posts: 1296 | Location: Cherokee Land, Tenasi | Registered: 06 January 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of andy*
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Cost and knowledge are two big things that are causing the decline of traditional black powder hunting and shooting.
Most used guns are in the $400-$1000 plus range.
And if you get really serious you might still have to work on your new to you gun to get an appearance of a pre-whatever gun. The idea of taking a file and rasp or changing something out etc ... to a new purchase , just to get the right look is some-what off putting.

Knowledge and understanding is lacking. Most folks think cleaning a traditional muzzleloader is difficult.
The idea of being able to hunt and hit game is grossly misrepresented in most hunting and shooting magazines.
The list of items you really need to shoot is way to long for most shooters I've seen.
I shoot from a bag. Powder , patch and ball. I do have a short starter , 'cause some patches are thicker than others. No range rod , no priming powder , no tackle box full of gear.
I shoot how I hunt , offhand and from my bag.
The reason for the long rant from shooting from my bag is because of the many times I have taken a newcomer to a shoot or rondezvous and have heard them say "I need all that just to shoot my rifle?" or words to that effect.
So between muzzleloading companies catering to in-lines and cost / knowledge of traditional guns is where i see the decline coming from.
Andy


Follow me I am the Infantry
 
Posts: 668 | Location: Everson, Washington | Registered: 27 June 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Well, the Blue Ridge Hunter from Cabela's, which is a Pedersoli Frontier, is fine, especially in .54. They cost comparable to a Lyman GPR in flint, and they are about as "off" from an actual replica from there time as the GPR is off from an actual plains rifle.

Swap out the front sight for a silver blade, replace the rear buckhorn for a primitive rear, and change over the ramrod thimbles and they are "very acceptable". IF all you want is a long rifle to hunt with, then you don't need those cosmetic changes, though a thin silver front sight WILL really help with accuracy.

One thing that I did not mention in my first response on page one, is right now is probably the worst time to try and expand any hobby population since the days of Jimmy Carter. Hobbies are done with expendable income, and few folks have that right now.

Folks in my area are starting to see an uptick in participation, just a tiny uptick, by appealing to parents and grand parents to get the kids out of the house away from the TV/Video Games/Cellphone Texts....and they are taking them to local sites, because that is less expensive.

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
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At the rondies I've been to, there were folks wearing meticulously historical dress and many wearing regular clothes. All were treated with respect - I wore jeans & T-shirt. The only woods walk shooter (that I'm aware of) that hit the axe head and broke the two clay targets was a lady shooting, what looked to be, a T/C, CVA or a Lyman trade rifle; pure factory. She was also dressed up for the 19th century.

Everyone had fun, was welcomed and never criticized. My experience is very limited but this is what I experienced.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3559 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of MountainRanger
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My experience in this regard is much the same as Hanshi. In the clubs I have either been associated with or traveled to for occasional shoots, there are those who enjoy dressing out and 'living the life' of a particular time period and there are those who come to shoot, enjoy the comraderie and renew old friendships and either no longer care to recreate a time period or have never thought much about it. In all cases, and I'm talking about at least six clubs in Georgia, Virginia and Tennessee, there is a high regard for all... none feeling they were (are) better than others for either dressing out or not. Same goes for the rifles carried. I have never heard anyone poo-pooing someone for a 'stock' rifle, or for paying for the rifle of their dreams.

Now, one caveat to that is the in-line crowd. They are not welcomed to participate in most shoots just because it ain't muzzle loading, at least as defined in NMLRA clubs and matches. Any shoot announcement I've ever received states that pretty clearly. I realize this sounds pretty snobbish, but frankly I gnash my teeth at the NMLRA because of all the space they dedicate to in-line stuff. I'll say again, it ain't muzzle loading as traditionally defined: Powder, PATCH and BALL. To the in-line enthusiasts, I ask: Why the HELL would anyone put a scope on a black powder rifle, and if you need a scope to hit something at better than 100 yards, why are you using a BLACK POWDER rifle to begin with? My gosh, you are not sniping at some gomer on a hill with a B-40!! Frankly, while not all that often, I have managed hit a gong at around 130 yards, standing off-hand and with open sights. I know many others that I currently shoot with and many from the past who can do much better. For those who insist on something with a scope, why not get a decent 30-06? For those who are that bad a shot, you don't need to be taking up space in the woods wounding critters instead of making meat! Besides, a 30-06 is easier to load. I really don't see anything PRIMITIVE about an in-line monstrosity with a danged scope on it, and special conical 'sure-kill' full jacketed bullets, yet they are BECOMING the Saturday Night Specials of black powder rifles... you can't go into the woods during primitive or muzzle loading season but where there isn't entire brigades of these clowns out ambushing, and probably getting mad if they don't get their deer and wouldn't hesitate to shoot at a cow, horse, dog, cat or someone's barn. I've seen it happen. I just get tired of reading and seeing people getting something like this to extend hunting season. Why not just get a nice used TC Hawken. They're good rifles... I started with a used TC. sheesh. I also have another good 'stock' rifle: A Lyman GPR in percussion flavor.

OK... off my danged soap box. This is one issue that really makes my pistachios itch!!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MountainRanger,


Sua Sponte
 
Posts: 460 | Location: SW Virginia (New River Valley) | Registered: 13 August 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Two years ago while hunting, I happened upon a group of 5 hunters. We were all hunting a muzzleloader season.

They were all packing steel shiny in-lines and definitely commented on the "old style rifle I was packing. It was a flintlock long rifle with a 39" barrel.

Load fast and aim slow.
 
Posts: 1726 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 08 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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MountainRanger; they are all buying in-lines because that is what is being sold in the stores. The sales person will talk it up, telling them about it's higher velocity, flatter trajectory, more aerodynamic bullets, longer range, and all the same rhetoric they used to sell high powered magnum rifles to those looking for a breech loader. Then there is the rhetoric about the better and easier to clean powders too. The in-lines have all sorts of gizmos to supposedly make them better, not to mention the ability to mount a scope on them.

What newbie can pass up all that and walk out with a much cheaper rifle than trying to pay over $500 for a traditional rifle? Even my nephew would have fallen victim to the salesman if I hadn't taken him under my wing.
 
Posts: 1726 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 08 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of MountainRanger
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Yup, like I said... Saturday Night Specials


Sua Sponte
 
Posts: 460 | Location: SW Virginia (New River Valley) | Registered: 13 August 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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