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The decline of traditional black powder hunting & shooting
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Greenhorn
posted
For the most part, I have noticed a large decline in the use of traditional,vs. in-line black powder rifles. Companies like Thompson Center and CVA are not even making traditional black powder rifles anymore

It seems to me that today, most people who use black powder rifles to hunt with do it to get in some extra hunting opportunities as opposed to getting in touch with a simpler time when hunting.

Now this is just my opinion, based on what I see here in N.Y. state. I would appreciate any opinions from others. Thanks for responding.........old "Greydog"
 
Posts: 28 | Registered: 03 October 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of andy*
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Greydog,
That seems to also be the case here in northwest Washington state. Most people are very suprised when I hunt with my Hawken or northwestgun.....they are even more suprised when they see how well they work.
I see no advantage with an inline...other than it has the look and feel of a modern centerfire rifle.
Most folks are not used to how a traditional muzzleloader handles and are unaware that they shoot very well.
Andy


Follow me I am the Infantry
 
Posts: 668 | Location: Everson, Washington | Registered: 27 June 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
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Part of the problem is that those who simply want a longer season and insist on the most cutting edge gun that still technically can be consider a muzzleloader. And these people and others are marginally rule breakers as well. Another thing is that our history and the art of hunting mean nothing to them; they just want to kill something. To me they might as well go all the way and use smokeless arms. I do not respect their choice of weapons nor do I respect them (with rule breaking rifles) as hunters.

But there is another side to this. In my case I do not begrudge them using and buying these futuristic "muzzleloaders"; Those on this forum prefer to go back in time and experience what our forebears experienced. Do I consider those monstrosities to be primitive weapons? Absolutely not. And since I hunt with flintlocks throughout the full season, modern guns and inlines don't bother me one bit.

I may take flak for this but I hope Hunters keep buying those things and buying licences, too. I've always done well with my primitives and NEVER have felt at any disadvantage.

A bit of humor, here. Back in Ga a friend hunted the same private farm as I. He was into magnum rifles, copper bullets and high power scopes, etc. He also owned an inline. He was telling me one day in the field about what a saboted modern bullet would do to a deer. I looked him in the eye and, "if I ever catch you out here hunting with that inline, I'll show you what a patched round ball will do to you". Although it was in (serious) jest, next time I saw him he told me he'd bought a sidelock percussion. Apparently he took my opinion to heart.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3559 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<mtnmike>
posted
As far as I know(could be wrong) I am the only side-lock in Ashe County,and that is alright as well,,I don't go to their shoots(xxline) and I don't ask or seek to hunt along side one either.
This is mtmike's way and he ain't changing Razzer
 
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Booshway
Picture of Cado
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I think a lot of it is us old farts are dying off and the young bucks don't have the history with muzzle loading that we do. Remember we grew up with Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett and others on TV. History is not being taught at school like it was when we were young so some just don't know about our past like they should. The country was more wild when I was a kid and I didn't have far to go to find a big tract of woods to hunt or play in. Also in this world of instant gratification we live in today its no wonder the in lines sell. Sad really when you think about it. I can't even sit through a hunting show today without getting sick. Buy one of the DVDS Brian Beckum sells if you want to watch muzzeloading like it should be done. OK rant over
 
Posts: 617 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 19 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Free Trapper
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Cado, I think you are right
 
Posts: 162 | Location: Burlington, Wisconsin | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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A fellow told me one time that when they started the special ML season that was the down fall of ML because if most hunters could hunt with a modern firearms they would never pick up a ML Bow hunting is the same way if it weren't for special season 90% of them would never use them it's all about the money.


The best thing about owning a dog is that someone is happy when you get home.
 
Posts: 959 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 09 December 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pilgrim
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At 68, I count myself among the old guys although I feel much younger. And I just started this traditional muzzleloader activity.
When I went to my first gathering (a Rendezvous) on a whim about 3 years ago, I was mildly surprised that most people were about my age. My first thought was that here I am just getting started and this could be the tail end of traditional muzzleloading interest.
There is some hope. I took the fiance of one of my students from the university out to shoot black powder last summer. We have gone several times since then and you can see the smile on his face and glow in his eye (not black powder embers - I make him wear eye protection. Big Grin). He is enamored of traditional black powder and is 26 years old. I saw an old Hopkins and Allen "Kentucky" rifle at a gunshop and gave it to him at Christmas. His look of joy was worth every dollar for that rifle! IT even was worth having to explain the expenditure to my wife! Cool Big Grin
Ron
 
Posts: 62 | Location: Golden, CO | Registered: 10 October 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hivernant
Picture of Willis Creek
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Our black powder community is simply a microcosm of the society at large. We moved up into the mountains eight years ago to get out of town and away from the noise, electronic confusion, and overall modernity. I don't care for today's fashions, music, movies, or other entertainment formats. I have never watched a 'reality' program. I find all the sportman's channels hunting shows to be disgusting displays of hubris and consumerism. And why do all those programs include raucous guitar music? I suppose it is to drown out your brain waves so you can't think about the immorality of filming animal deaths. I hunt, but from a far more spiritual viewpoint than what you witness on tv. And please don't get me started on the miserable political situation today!


"touch not the cat without a glove"
"Much of the social history of the western world over the past three decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good. . ." Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 143 | Location: South of the Arkansas, on the slopes of St. Charles Peak, Colorado territory | Registered: 25 January 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Well muzzleloading hunting, is a much smaller portion of traditional style muzzleloading. Of the folks that I know who have traditional muzzleloading rifles or guns, less than 25% hunt.

In fact you might make the argument that the folks that hunt with inlines would not switch over en masse to traditional arms if the laws were suddenly switched, for there was not a large move to traditional style muzzleloaders prior to the birth of the inline, though the "muzzleloader" or "primitive" season existed for a long period prior.

Consider history...the bow was replaced by the flintlock, why? The flinter was replaced by the caplock, then by the cartridge rifle...why? Each gave an advantage over the prior system.

So the key then is to use human nature...and so to create an artificial advantage...What was the first advantage of returning to using bows for deer hunting...their early season. What was the first advantage of muzzleloading...an extended season...there was never really a surge btw in flintlock use....it was all caplocks except in the few states that created flintlock only seasons

In my area, the advantage of bows today is the early season AND they are allowed in areas where firearms may not be used. The advantage of the inlines is most of my state is also rifle prohibited for deer, leaving only shotguns and muzzleloaders, and the inliners want something similar to modern rifle capability and an extended season.

In my state the DNR wants the deer herd reduced....so they don't care much about the aesthetics...so whatever is done needs to be sold to the lawmakers as increasing the deer harvest, and possibly increasing safety...

So... if we were to encourage the use of a traditional muzzleloader for hunting, we need to lobby for some advantage. A larger season or more deer? Perhaps offer a state certification as a "primitive hunter" the same way we provide hunter safety classes, and teach the virtues of flintlock and caplock round ball hunting...coupled with a cheaper license or better bag limits, and a longer season?

Overcome the prejudice against the traditional designs with mandatory classes...and at the end of the class the hunter gets an advantage.

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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*scribble scribble*......I haven't really analyzed what the attraction of sidelocks are to me.I do know that inlines hold no fascination for me.I've got cartridge rifles,and enjoy shooting them,but something about the traditional sidelock just fascinates me.....maybe the more complicated process for producing a BOOM!!I'll have to reread your posts,and see if I can achieve enlightenment..... Big Grin


Beer is proof that God loves us,and wants us to be happy-B. Franklin
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: Oreegun Territory | Registered: 24 March 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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I many states, it is legal to us scopes on muzzleloaders and if you go back a couple of years when the manufacturers were pushing the sales of in-lines and fake black powder, you will find that an in-line using 3 powder pellets, match most of the standard high powder rifle energy levels at 100 yds.

This basically gives those hunters a 30-06 and if it has a scope, they don't have to learn how to get close to game, they can continue hunting as if they are using their 30-06.

This allows them to road hunt the clear cuts and take those longer shots. One more advantage is some of the in-lines have sealed breeches so the hunter doesn't have to worry about a rain dampened cap not going off.

Washington state requires all muzzleloaders to have its ignition system "open to the elements" and the modern shotgun 209 primers can not be used. They still have the range of standard caps, mag caps, or the top hat musket caps. That or a flintlock or one of the more primitive muzzleloaders.

Two years ago I was hunting with my flintlock and up above me on a hill were some fellows also hunting but overlooking the area I was in. It was private land and I had written permission to hunt the area so after hunting the area, I hiked up the hill to speak to them. There were 5 fellows all hunting with in-lines and they definitely noticed my flintlock long rifle. I didn't know it until later in the day but the land owner also went up and discussed the situation with the fellows.

No, we didn't have any great drama over the deal and everyone departed with a "good luck" comment.

The younger guys are listening to the salesmen who is trying to make a sale. The in-lines are being sold with the same rhetoric as the magnum rifles were in the 1960's. You know, faster velocity, flatter trajectory, and therefor longer shots can be takes. With the advent of the in-lines, we now have an abundance of super bullets being touted as the best thing for what ever you are hunting.

Load fast and aim slow.
 
Posts: 1726 | Location: Pacific Northwest | Registered: 08 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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After reading all the comments on this topic, I think there are many causes for the decline in traditional muzzle loading.
For one, it seems that younger folks (I'm 65) are not getting into the sport. I, like a lot of folks my age grew up watching Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone. These and others like them became real heroes to me. By using a traditional muzzle loader when easing through the deer woods, I like to think, that at least in a small way I'm emulating these boyhood heroes of mine. I also believe one of the biggest factors are states that allow scope mounted in-lines during their black powder season.
Originally, I thought the black powder season was supposed to be a "primitive" hunting season, but it has morphed into just an extension of the deer season.
To paraphrase a responder, using an inline with 3 50 grain powder pellets is just about the same as using a single shot 30-06.
Here in NY state, when the muzzle loading season was first introduced, a hunter could only use iron sights and a patched round ball. Later on, the round ball requirement was dropped and eventually so was the iron sight requirement.
Kudos to the state of Pennsylvania as they require a flintlock in order to hunt during their black powder season. While I certainly don't think that traditional muzzle loading will vanish, I do believe that modern muzzle loading will continue to increase in popularity.
 
Posts: 28 | Registered: 03 October 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Back around 1960 I was a young boy working at a gun club as the trap boy, operating the trap flinging clay birds for trap and skeet matches.

The Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone craze was still going on at that time.

One time a guy brought a flintlock fowler to a skeet match. Everyone was facinated and crowded around to see it. He even let several people try it out. I was allowed to handle the gun, but didn't fire it. Quite a novelty!

Last year I took my own flintlock fowler to a turkey shoot. Except for one small boy, no one else had any interest whatsoever in it.

Sad.


Know what you believe in. Fight for your beliefs. Never compromise away your rights.
 
Posts: 1296 | Location: Cherokee Land, Tenasi | Registered: 06 January 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of andy*
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Where I live it seems that most folks are into "Teddy Tactical" rifles and unless you have the latest and greatest rifle with a super scope of doom , "Just like they use in the Navy Seals", you won't be able to hunt or hit your target.
I've given up trying to reach these folks....but I do love their shocked looks when I shoot and hit my target or bring home my deer....
Its not like I am against those rifles or those that own them, I just don't like the idea that using a certain rifle or scope means that any other way of hunting or shooting won't work
Andy


Follow me I am the Infantry
 
Posts: 668 | Location: Everson, Washington | Registered: 27 June 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Greenhorn
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To further emphasize on Andy's remarks; Several years ago I went down to the eastern shore of Maryland to hunt their early muzzle loading season. Out of about a dozen hunters, there were only two of us with traditional caplock rifles. All the others had scoped equipped in-lines.
As luck would have it (and maybe just a bit of skill) I was sitting in a tree stand when a large 8pt. buck moseyed down the trail not 30 yards from me and one well placed heart-lung shot was "all she wrote". As it turned out, that deer was the largest taken during the 3 day hunt. Many of the other hunters were quite surprised how deadly the old time Hawken could be.
 
Posts: 28 | Registered: 03 October 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of MountainRanger
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Me too, Andy. Nothing tickles me more than when I go out to my range for a little practice and see some of these folks come out with their new in-lines with leather sling, scope, cd player, air conditioning and 42 coats of some kind of finish that makes them glow like a new Mercedes coupe... and then I outshoot them with my flintlock! That makes these old bones all warm and fuzzy


Sua Sponte
 
Posts: 460 | Location: SW Virginia (New River Valley) | Registered: 13 August 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Hanshi
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Long, long ago, I use to tag along with my older brother through the woods. Back then we could almost step out the back door and shoot. Nowadays that whole area is a morass of houses, low rent housing projects and a bypass highway. He generally carried a .22LR rifle , shotgun or a pistol. But even at that early age I carried a toy, paper cap firing "muzzleloader". My interest in muzzleloaders went back over 60 years. Wasn't long before I got my own "real" gun; and only a bit after I got my first muzzleloader.

At the local range where I go I never cease getting attention from other shooters. They often want to look and hold it and I never fail to invite them to fire it. Invariably they are surprised. I think I may have spurred some interest in a few cases; at least I hope so.


*Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.*
 
Posts: 3559 | Location: Maine (by way of Georgia then Va.) | Registered: 26 January 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<mtnmike>
posted
They are welcome to their "rifles" but two things are certain (1) they won't be sharing a campfire or (2) they won't be drinking my coffee. Roll Eyes
 
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Booshway
Picture of Idaho Mountainneer
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Just so's you older fellers don't worry to much I'm only in my 20's. I grew up watching Davy Crockett and to this day it is on top of my list of favorite movies. About the only movie that tops that is Jeremiah Johnson.
Ever since my boy was born I've done a powerful lot of thinking on how I want to raise him and learnin' the old ways, like shootin' front stuffers, is something I would like to teach him.
Now whether he wants to pursue that or not is up to him.
Oh and he will definitely be raised on Davy Crockett and not this new garbage that passes as kids shows.
 
Posts: 330 | Location: Twin Falls ID | Registered: 29 January 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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