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Hivernant
Picture of Johnny Reb
posted
I know this is probably a silly question, but what is the History on the primer horn. Did the mountainmen use them back then or did they just use one powder horn for both priming and loading?


"All tyranny needs to gain a foot hold is for People of good conscious to remain silent"
Thomas Jefferson
 
Posts: 110 | Registered: 20 March 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Reb, I've never studied that out, but I've held in my hands a very small horn which belonged to a Civil war vet who carried his own flintlock all throughout the war. It had to be a priming horn for it wouldn't have carried over a half dozen shots, otherwise.

Fiddlesticks


As long as there's Limb Bacon a man'll eat! (But mebbe not his wife...)
 
Posts: 4816 | Location: Buffalo River Country | Registered: 23 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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WOW ,,, now there is a can of worms .
The topic of dedicated priming horns is something that goes around a lot .
IMO I would say that there is no to very little documentation to support the use of a dedicated priming horn .
When you do find reference its often in the context of later target shooting or wing shooting . So I would have to agree with those who reason that the pan was primed with the same powder as the main charge , thus from the same horn or flask .
As fiddlestick mentioned though , by the later part of the 19century , this seemed to start to change in some cases . So sometimes we do see small flasks start to show up . but even those exsamples are often few and far between .
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Aside from some military applications the general feeling among gun historians is that in the 18th century that a single horn was used for main charge and prime and is really pretty easy/effective once one tried it IMHO, the larger powder is clocked at being slower but for most the time difference is not enough to be an issue, often the choice comes down to trying to gain whatever edge one can vs recreating how it was done in the past.
 
Posts: 272 | Registered: 12 June 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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OK, so this is really off topic but, Rev. 'Sticks, I would enjoy learning the history of this priming horn and the CW vet who carried his flinter through the War.

Can you fill us in on that? I'm sure whatever info you have would be fascinating. Thanks. Cool
 
Posts: 721 | Location: TriCities, WA | Registered: 25 January 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Dave and all, about all I know is the story the family was traditionally handed down, who kept the rifle and the horn as relics. Sadly, one descendant let the rifle go to ruin. I'm told it had 'silver decorations'. My next door neighbor had the horn, who treated it reverentially. The story is that the ancestor joined the confederacy with his own weapon and made it all the way through with it intact. I can't recall if my neighbor mentioned whether there was a larger horn. Could be that the small horn was a hunting horn used before the war. It being a priming horn was my own speculation, which probably isn't worth much along these lines.

Fiddlesticks


As long as there's Limb Bacon a man'll eat! (But mebbe not his wife...)
 
Posts: 4816 | Location: Buffalo River Country | Registered: 23 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Dick
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I'll admit I'm to some degree just editing and repeating things I've heard or read over the years, but I'll agree that using one horn is probably more historically correct. Most flintlock firearms did NOT have vent liners, they had a hole drilled from the lock's pan into the barrel; sometimes these holes were in fact coned on the inside to improve ignition, but often probably not. As the gun was used, the hole naturally wore bigger and bigger, making ignition with coarser-grained powder much easier. I do think that middle-class and wealthier men especially, who used their rifles as much for target-shooting as anything else, may have had priming horns with finer-grained powder, as well as gold or rare-metal vent liners. When did this start? I don't know, but I'd hazard the possibility that it was some time in the early 1800s, as higher-quality powder became more readily available and men had more disposable income to spend on such things. But it could be much later. Probably not used as much for hunting as we do, nor for combat, when it would just be another thing to bother with and cart around.
Just my humble opinion.

Dick


"Est Deus in Nobis"
 
Posts: 2902 | Location: Helena, Montana | Registered: 10 December 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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when it comes to American made guns. I have never seen a liner on an original piece past a repair of the flash hole . That being said , when it comes to European guns dating to the mid to later half of the 18th century , a lot have liners.
buy the later 1/2 of the 18th century both Manton and Nock had pattened liner designs
I also should note many of these guns also carried self priming pans
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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I'm no machinist...

How does one cone the other side of a vent hole (i.e. inside the barrel)?

Sparks


"I thought when you said you chased tornadoes, it was just a metaphor."
--soon to be ex-fiance in Twister
 
Posts: 247 | Location: Boise | Registered: 12 November 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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originaly it was done with a small cherry bit that was slid through the hole from the inside james
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Dick
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparks:
I'm no machinist...

How does one cone the other side of a vent hole (i.e. inside the barrel)?

Sparks


Dave Rase in Washington has an original, or one he copied from an original, that has a little bit as Captchee describes, that fits inside the open breech at a 90-degree angle; there's a crank handle just like on a small hand drill, and Dave says it's pretty slick. I don't know how common those were, but probably common enough.

Dick


"Est Deus in Nobis"
 
Posts: 2902 | Location: Helena, Montana | Registered: 10 December 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hivernant
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I know, being a greenhorn and all, that I'm not supposed to chime in but, I think Rex Norman(?) did a whole article on that very thing a bunch of years ago right here in Muzzleloader mag.
Showed the tool and everything. Great article


Keep inside the tree line, Don't let 'em know where yer bedded. Some have less than you do and my be inclined to try and take what little ya have.
 
Posts: 107 | Location: The Soviet Socialist state of Connectitax | Registered: 29 May 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of captchee
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quote:
that I'm not supposed to chime in

On the contrary !
Please do chime in . you just never know when you may have some info that no one or very few have seen .
We all can learn from each other . Be it the novice from the experienced or the experienced from the novice
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Payette ,Idaho | Registered: 23 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Agree with Cap'. As the long-windedest cuss on here let me quickly say, 'just hump at the fire out of the cold and expound as much as you wish - or for as long as you can stand the rest of us'! Haw! Pitch fuel on the flame, so to speak!

Fiddlesticks


As long as there's Limb Bacon a man'll eat! (But mebbe not his wife...)
 
Posts: 4816 | Location: Buffalo River Country | Registered: 23 October 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Several years ago this topic came up and there was no evidence at that time that this tool was ever found in the colonies but only in Europe, it is possible that the may have made a small shanked bit similar to what we do now from a finish nail, or even drill thru from the other side then thread and plug the hole, which seems a waste of time when they could just drill and put a liner on the lock side. The liner is very much over represented io todays colonial/American made guns. Some think it is due to the reconversion back to flintlock of the guns that were converted to caplock from flint in the 19th century. The "reconversion" was done in the 20th century when MLing got popular again.
 
Posts: 272 | Registered: 12 June 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
Picture of Dick
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trg may be correct about the presence of the in-breech coning tool, but while I don't know for sure, I believe Dave R. found his copy here in the US. Others may know more about that specifically.

Dick


"Est Deus in Nobis"
 
Posts: 2902 | Location: Helena, Montana | Registered: 10 December 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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I do not know Dick just mentioned what was the concensus on one of the heavy history based forums several years ago, it is not uncommon for items to be found in Europe but not here, but I cannot say as to the coning tool, someone showed a photo of it as I recall.
 
Posts: 272 | Registered: 12 June 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hivernant
Picture of Pare-
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Not sure if there are any images or descriptions of hunters or trappers who had priming horns.

Here's a link to an auction from awhile back. There's all sorts of items on there; measures, guns, powder kegs, etc.

http://www.cottoneauctions.com...ents&accessories.htm

Pare-
 
Posts: 104 | Location: Little River, I.T. | Registered: 06 February 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Good talk. For what it's worth I quit using a primer horn. I thought I was supposed to use one. My first rifle was a Traditions Shenandoa. Santa brought it to me. It shoots very well. But I found out by losing a shot at a deer that if the rifle wasn't held pretty horizontal that the 4f would leak out thru the cracks between the frizen cover and pan. My brother and I summized trying the charge powder as it is bigger grain. We also dicussed the idea that charge powder being bigger there would be more air surrounding the prime charge. Anyhow the charge powder works just fine in the pan. And yes I know I should get at the pan frizzen cover fit.


I never have been much for drinking the kool-aid.It's not in my nature.
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Central Pennsyltucky | Registered: 12 January 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
Picture of Notchy Bob
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I did find an image of someone priming his pan from his "big horn."

Check this out (if you have the patience): Westward - The Rifle!

This is an article about Hawken rifles in an archived issue of Guns magazine from February, 1955, on page 12. The illustration on the first page of the article (p.12) shows a mounted man in a hunting shirt in the foreground, turned in his saddle, priming his flinter from his powder horn. His companion, in the background, is aiming his gun at some sort of threat.

The title of the painting and the name of the artist were not provided. The painting looks 19th century to me, sort of in the style of George Caleb Bingham, who lived from 1811 - 1879, or possibly Charles Deas (1818 - 1867), both of whom favored western frontier themes in their work. I have no idea how to copy the image and post it on this forum... Maybe some of you smart fellows can work your magic.

Anyway, the painting appears to support the contention that the old timers might have primed from the main powder horn, at least when they were pressed.

Notchy Bob


"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us. Should have rode horses. Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife
 
Posts: 333 | Location: Florida | Registered: 24 May 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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