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Possible Bag (again)
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Booshway
Picture of Iche Iia
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OK guys, it always seems to me that when I want a good answer I can always count on a few of you guys that have already done the research and can save me a ton of time. Besides I’m getting….no…….”got” old and research is something that my short patients won’t allow me do much of anymore……but I still try.

A while back, I ask you guys about the mountain man possible bag and the general thought was, what we take as an over the shoulder “Possible bag” is an invention of the modern day re-enactor and I certainly see the logic in that thought process. A mountaineer had a possible bag but it was on his HORSE not his shoulder. When you have your horse close to you to carry all that stuff, why on earth would you want yet another cumbersome bag getting in your way?

My question now is twofold. One: is that still the correct approach to that question? And two; what about belt bags? Same deal? Or were they more commonly used. And if so, for what purpose? Let me preface that a bit by saying this question does NOT include a shooting or hunting bag. That’s a separate thing all together.


Iche Iia

"Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."
 
Posts: 379 | Location: Prince George, Virginia | Registered: 04 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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I think information is getting blurred.

The term "possibles bag" was what I believe is the modern invention....not the bag nor the idea. It stemmed from folks doing fur trade era rendezvous-camping, enlarging the shooting bag/rifle bag into a container for more than just stuff for the rifle. I carry a compass/sundial, and a fire starting kit in my rifle bag, for example....but they took it further. For some it went beyond "everything needed to make it possible to survive", and became "everything I can possibly carry".

What they are calling a possibles bag, having enough stuff to make it "possible" to survive if cut off from camp or your horse...., is a pack. The current thinking is that such a pack would stay on the horse..., not come slung over one's back when the hunter or trapped dismounted. That's all.

Now (imho) the same thing happens in 18th century reenacting and living history/trekking. Folks talk about their "haversack", when they are talking about their pack. "Haversack" in English for the time period seems to be one of the few terms that were quite specific. It was a government issued, military, ration bag. It was linen cloth, of a specific size, it wasn't water proofed, nor embroidered, and it wasn't leather. Further, carrying one marked the bearer as being part of the military, so a civilian would not wish to suggest they were a possible deserter, when they weren't even in the army.

So, did civilians have bags with a single strap, sure. Variations on the single strap pack go way back, and illustrations of single and double strapped Packs go back to at least Charles I of England, if not farther. Just don't call them "haversacks", even if they look similar to a military haversack.

So, did the fur trade folks have single strap packs? Sure, why not, especially if you didn't have saddle bags..., perhaps you had to fashion one in an emergency? Lots of reason why you might have a single or double strap pack. (We rarely use horses in our living history impressions, either 18th century or fur trade, so we have to carry our junk in some manner.) Just call it a pack, and not a "possibles bag".

LD


It's not what you know, it's what you can prove
 
Posts: 3843 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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As I said, I can always count on good information here and your last paragraph is my exact thought about why we carry that "extra bag".

Thanks Dave.


Iche Iia

"Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."
 
Posts: 379 | Location: Prince George, Virginia | Registered: 04 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Factor
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Not that I'm any kind of expert,but I agree with Dave,after due consideration.....


Beer is proof that God loves us,and wants us to be happy-B. Franklin
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: Oreegun Territory | Registered: 24 March 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Possibles bag is not modern term it is first noted in the 1830-40 period and as noted in the documentation it was the mountain man's suit case so to speak. By the RMFT era the term for the shoulder pouch to carry your gun fixins in was called a: ball bag, shot/schott pouch, ball pouch etc.:

from George Frederick Ruxton's book "Life in the Far West", "...whars the dollars as ought to be in my possibles?". Ruxton also references a "possibles sack" describing it as a "wallet (an Indian style parfleche) of dressed buffalo skin" for carrying "[extra] ammunition, a few pounds of tobacco, dressed deerskins for moccasins, etc."


In William Drummond Stewart's fictional book "Edward Warren", but based on his Rocky mountain experiences, " my gaudy cottons having confronted the glorious sun until sunk from the contest, were ready to be re-consigned to the possible sack."

see fort hall records for trap sack info

as for "haversacks in the RMFT era - yes they did occur in some later versions of A. J. Miller's painting "The Trappers Bride" shows him wearing a over the shoulder bag similar to a haversack - other versions show the trapper wearing a schot bag and powder horn.

As for belt bags there are a couple of period references that I'll look for and one of Bodmer's paintings shows a trapper/interpreter with a belt bag.


aka Chuck Burrows
 
Posts: 616 | Location: Southern Rockies | Registered: 03 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Gray Wolf, I think, if I understand you correctly, you are saying basically the same thing. It’s not the usage of the thing, it’s rather the terminology used to describe it. And calling it a possibles “sack” is, to me, a much better way of saying it. The large market wallet type of sack that is carried on the horse is another good description.


Iche Iia

"Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."
 
Posts: 379 | Location: Prince George, Virginia | Registered: 04 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Here's one reference to a belt tobacco pouch - Osborne Russell:
is placed one or two Epishemores a riding Saddle
and bridle a sack containing six Beaver traps a blanket with an extra pair of Mocasins his powder horn and bullet pouch with a belt to which is attached a butcher Knife a small wooden box containing bait for Beaver a Tobacco sack with a pipe and implements for making fire with sometimes a hatchet fastened to the Pommel of his saddle his personal dress is a flannel or cotton shirt (if he is fortunate enough to obtain one, if not Antelope skin answers
the purpose of over and under shirt) a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, leggings, a coat made of Blanket or Buffaloe robe a hat or Cap of wool, Buffaloe or Otter skin his hose are pieces of Blanket
lapped round his feet which are covered with a pair of Moccassins made of Dressed Deer Elk or Buffaloe skins with his long hair falling loosely over his shoulders complets his uniform


aka Chuck Burrows
 
Posts: 616 | Location: Southern Rockies | Registered: 03 April 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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There it is


Iche Iia

"Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."
 
Posts: 379 | Location: Prince George, Virginia | Registered: 04 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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Something that I just ran across that may be of interest to some of you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mJdjZAhq8k


Iche Iia

"Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."
 
Posts: 379 | Location: Prince George, Virginia | Registered: 04 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Booshway
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In my research about possible bags and the use of knives other than butcher knives, I ran across this in a book of paintings by A.J. Miller. "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller".

Miller’s notes on his painting “Trappers starting for the Beaver Hunt” on page one, he writes, concerning trappers leaving the Rendezvous: On starting for the hunt the trapper fits himself out with full equipment. In addition to his animals he procures 5 or 6 traps (usually carried in a trap-sack), ammunition, a few pounds of tobacco, a supply of moccasins, a wallet called a possible sack, gun, Bowie Knife and sometimes a tomahawk.

He mentions “Bowie knife” in several other notations as well.


Iche Iia

"Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."
 
Posts: 379 | Location: Prince George, Virginia | Registered: 04 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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