Howdy all, Just how common were belt bags, or belt pouches back in the good old days ( 1790-1840)? I have looked at old paintings and drawings and I haven't seen any, so I'm wondering if it is more of a modern idea

I have photo documentation of a "French Lady's"
belt pouch that accompanied her shooting etc.

Its a very fancy embroidered affair from the early 18th century if I recall correctly...

THats about the only "belt pouch" I can personally document....except of course pipe bags and slit pouches...they were worn under the belt or sash...often made from and animal skin...used by white fur traders as well as natives well into the 19th century...
TCA

Thanks TC I was hoping to get a response from you on that.
I like the belt bags, just for balls and patches. They just work better for me. I was just wondering though about their "pc" status!

Sawbones...very interesting subject for sure...
one I really enjoy learning and speculating about...

I "think"...and this isnt much for anybody to go on here for sure...but for the sake of just plain old discussion and speculation about your question...I think that "shoulder" carried bags and even military cartridge blocks were the universal norm until actual metal cartridges made pouches like the "McKeever" style more belt adaptable...maybe about the same time that actual "cartridge belts" like the prairie belt for the 1873 trapdoors etc.. came around too... earlier,you also see some officers belts with waist boxes and cap pouches around the civil war etc I think...I suppose with an over the shoulder sword rig they needed a different carriage for cartridge fixins? Maybe the same was true for carbine/ horse mounted troops too?
Anyway, the trend towards waist boxes was definately martial, and by then civilians on a whole needed and carried fewer and fewer guns...
and needed less and less accouterment stuff accordingly...finally ended up with a few loops for shells on a lonely old pistol belt...

I dont know for sure why they never caught on, but belt pouches dont seem to be very represented by surviving examples or period documentation etc... so they are generally thought of as non PC, and I have to agree with that...especially not for the care and feeding of traditional muzzle loaders from what I know and have seen...

I think..(there I go again..)that it's because of the powder horn...that item of necessity needs to be slung over a shoulder on a strap if its of any size and you want to take it with you to reload your muzzle loader ...and why seperate the bullet bag and horn. in fact they were often made as an intergral unit with the horn attached to the pouch straps??? But, once the horn was no longer needed ...it seems a logical step to make belted cartridge boxes etc...again, just my own ruminations....

That said, definately use what works best for you...but it may be a hard sell at a "juried" event unless you disguise it as a slit pouch etc...( which for that matter may have actually been a belt pouch made to be used exactly like you use yours anyhow???)
TCA

This message has been edited. Last edited by: T.Albert,

There's the famous reference from Dodderidge that sometimes the shot-bag was hung on the belt.

My next bag will be a belt bag. I HATE stuff hanging loose on me. Absolutely drives me nuts. Bend over, even just a little, and whoosh, there goes the bag, swinging 'round in front of me, and there's nothing I can do to stop it. Can't do much with the horn, but I can hold it back OK.

I've started putting a thong with a button/bead on the bottom of my shooting pouches-tuck the thong in your belt/sash and no more swinging bag...got the idea from Greywolf(thanks Chuck) and it works great!

Dutchman, would you be able to forward me the Dodridge documentation? I would very much like to follow up on that...thanks a million.
TCA

When in the field you can tie a silk or other light sash around your torso to keep any shoulder bags from flopping so much.

"The belt, which is always tied behind, answered several purposes, besides that of holding the dress together. In cold weather the mittens, and sometimes the bullet bag, occupied the front part of it. To the right side was suspended the tomahawk and to the left the scalping knife in its leather sheath". -- Joseph Doddridge "Notes on the Settlements and Indian Wars of the Western Parts of Virginia and Pennsylvania 1763-1783"

I think shoulder shot-bags were ALMOST universal, but bags on the belt were not unheard of. Belt-hung hunting bags were the norm in Germany and the rest of Europe in the early 18th century, and earlier into the middle ages. I keep saying I'm going to make one of these kinds of bags, but never get around to it. These have a ring sewn into the top with a drawstring closure, and hang from a narrow leather or iron belt loop. By the middle of the 18th century, the shoulder bag began to be the fashion, but the drawstring belt bag continues to be used by Falconers today.

I have heard that an accouterment belt could be worn over the shooting bag strap to hold the bag in check...but that would mean the shooting bag was hanging way low...

No sources...
Sparks

y'all might recollect th' "sam brown" sorta rig, with th' shootin' bag hung off'n a belt and a shoulder strap--madison grant has one on page 143 uv 'the knife in homespun america', which makes a heap o' sense t' this child. i don't much give a rip, but thet'n only dates to th' postwar period; howsumever, it warn't th' furst, ner yet th' last thet wuz done thetaway.
jist like capotes with sewed-in pockets, they ain't much used nowadays, but they wuz thar on th' perairies back in shinin' times. mind yer topknots! windy

Along with shot bags there were also other types of belt bags...
Osborne Russell -
"with a belt to which is attached a butcher Knife a small wooden box containing bait for Beaver a Tobacco sack with a pipe and implements for making fire..

G. F Ruston also mentions about RMFT mountaineers wearing belts pouches for holding fire starting gear...

Then there is all in one belt pouch and belt being worn by the interpeter (very probably Toussaint Charbonneau) in the Bodmer print where they are meeting the Minnetarees in front of Ft Clark - here's a closeup...


Variations of this type pouch can be seen on the Splendid Heritage site.....

quote:

I've started putting a thong with a button/bead on the bottom of my shooting pouches-tuck the thong in your belt/sash and no more swinging bag...got the idea from Greywolf(thanks Chuck) and it works great!

Mitch is sure does and you're welcome!
BTW do you know about the private Gordon Museum in Santa Fe? It's chock full of RMFT guns and gear - a friend is wanting to meet me there sometime around the beginning of August? Interested????

quote:

These have a ring sewn into the top with a drawstring closure, and hang from a narrow leather or iron belt loop.

In the middle ages and later those were known as hunter's pouches or gypciere pouches - I've got a good pattern if you're interested.....

quote:

Mitch is sure does and you're welcome!
BTW do you know about the private Gordon Museum in Santa Fe? It's chock full of RMFT guns and gear - a friend is wanting to meet me there sometime around the beginning of August? Interested????

Hey Mitch,

I'm baitin' the old Grey Wolf outta his hidey-hole in the hills with one of the finest collections of fur trade era guns and gear there is. If he pokes his head out you won't want to miss it. Seriously though, if you haven't ventured down to Jim's museum you are truly missing out. We're gonna be up that way sometime in the first couple of weeks of August and are gonna try to set up a visit if Jim's in town. You are more than welcome to come along. I still have rug-burn scars on my lower jaw from the last time I was there in 2006. Its sorta like the holy grail of museums. Shoot me an e-mail off the list at neotoma_mexicana@yahoo.com if you're interested and I'll keep you posted as the plans shape up.

Sean

GreyWolf and SacMtnMan-I'm always up for a good gathering...get in touch with me off-list and we can work out the details...I'm probably heading to LosGolondrinas this year for their "mtnman" encampment-maybe this would be a good time for us to meet?

Speaking of museums: I'm going to be in Taos/Santa Fe/ Albuquerque areas late Sept./early Oct. Are there any public museums that I shouldn't miss? Or other historical points of interest? Can't get much from internet tourist sites. Thanks,Bill in Oregon

quote:

Originally posted by GreyWolf:

quote:

These have a ring sewn into the top with a drawstring closure, and hang from a narrow leather or iron belt loop.

In the middle ages and later those were known as hunter's pouches or gypciere pouches - I've got a good pattern if you're interested.....

Yes, I'm interested. I've seen another name for these..."gilperin" or something like that. Not only a hunting bag, but it seems to have been used by everybody for everything (no pockets, you see...). Many variations, some became the "geldkatze" type bag, that has a clamshell opening at the top with or without the drawstring inside, sometimes with extra little pockets on the outside. By the 18th century, the only pictures I see of the continued use of this type of bag is with falconers. Everyone else seems to have gone with the clamshell purse type of bag, or a simple leather bag of ordinary type.

I looked for mine and of course can't find it but several versions of it are included in the Past Patterns pouches pack by Medieval Miscellanea - It should be available on line from several vendors

Howdy Mitch - Sean is on the road as soon as he gets settled we'll try and figure things out.

quote:

I'm going to be in Taos/Santa Fe/ Albuquerque areas late Sept./early Oct. Are there any public museums that I shouldn't miss? Or other historical points of interest?

The Gordaon museum we are discussing in Santa fe is private but one can view it by appointment. Contact Sean he has the phone number

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GreyWolf,

Here you go. A Falconer's bag.
http://www.nmia.com/~bohemond/...ge/hawking-pouch.htm

there is a pic of Daniel Boone in his later years wearing a belt bag if i can find it i'll post it here