TC,

Well stated. In the far west, when people didn't have commercial buttons, they appear to have fairly regularly used ties. I'd still go with a button on a pouch.

Totally unrelated to your response, but I have always wondered why it is that someone always gets their shorts in a bunch in these discussions, and its never the person who asks for information on what's period correct or the person who offers that information in return. Its always a third party who doesn't care about the question or the answers. Odd, don't you think?

Sean

FWIW - one does not need a saw to make an antler or any other kind of button -
the following two elk antler buttons were made with my skinning knife, a chunk of wood used as hammer to take a slice of antler off the side - not cross wise, a file (a chunk of sandstone would have worked as well), and a heated awl point to "punch" the holes - it took about 15 minutes to make both of them - the original intent was not to prove they were used, but rather that takes only minimal tooling (still saws are not out of line for most periods - they show up on RMFT trade lists and most any eastern station or homestead would have had them):


as to antler buttons on original gear - the bag on the left appears to have an antler button (maybe bone? - but then antler is a type of bony material):


While there is little in the way of documentation for antler being used for buttons, antler was extensively used for many things by frontiersmen of most eras: awl handles, knife handles, and powder measures are three that come to mind as used by "whites". Antler tips also show up fairly frequently on western NDN knife sheaths as the toggle for holding the sheath to the belt.

As to documentation - I try as much as possible to follow the "rules" but sometimes they just don't cover the usage and that's where "experimental" archeology comes into play - example:
Carrying ones shot bag/pouch and horns - many re-enactors use the high and tight under the arm carry, with little to no primary documentation (I don't know of any off hand?) - due to various reason I couldn't and didn't like that carry, and the only real documentation I found for the RMFT (AJ Miller and some of the period journals) either showed or implied the bag was worn about waist level, but that alone wasn't perfect so.....
I use a thong attach to the bag with a toggle that hooks behind my belt to keep the bloody thing from flopping around or even worse getting in the way when bending over to set a beaver trap (having one go off at the wrong time is NO FUN!).
The original "idea" for the thong came from a mis-interpretation of, IIRC, Warren Ferris' description of the mountaineers tying their pouch off to the belt (they did but the pouch was hung center front not under the arm - that got cleared up after several years when other documentation appeared). I use a toggle button instead of tying off since it allows the bag to be easily removed, yet keeps it secure - that idea came from the toggles on sheaths as noted above. In the long run it worked for me, but I don't and won't claim it as being documented, but rather in the the realm of period possible/probable.

So would an antler button have been used on the 1790's Ky frontier? possible - yes, but the sticky part comes when one considers the probability and that depends on what documentation we have at hand...and documentation always depends on who, when, and where.......

quote:

Its always a third party who doesn't care about the question or the answers. Odd, don't you think?

Ain't that the truth, mention that fact that most peep sights and bullets used in sidelock ML's today are not traditional but of modern design and stand back, even when it is stated that being non-traditional is not bad the (^&*% starts flying with the typical nonsense and illogical conclusions about the past and present.Antler buttons in 1790 Kentucky? I don't know but I suspect that there would likely be other options as available if not more so, having said that I have some on my gear and I do a 1760-70 period but make no specific clams to the horn buttons being supported by documentation, but rather by Historic experimentation as someone called it, one does need to walk a fine line and keep the "exploration" under control.

"Sawbones - That is comforting. So, instead of "were used" you say "prove they weren't"..

The above is a bad path to get started on, it is just not the way historians, archeologist and such read the past, what you want is often out there, if not then one needs to really put the test to the plausibility, logic, practicality and such and put personal desires and wants completely out of the equation.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: trg,

TC - Thanks for that thoughtful and complete reply. As I said, I had hoped you would jump in here at some point.

The closure I created is, as you generally describe, a thin (3/16") thick disc of antler with a pair of holes through the pith - made with an awl. The antler is old, so the pith is quite stout. This is attached to the flap of the pouch. Below that, attached to the body of the bag, is a whang about a foot long that I wrap around the back of the "toggle" to secure the flap. Very effective and easy to secure or open.

There is a post following yours that shares a pouch from Museum of the Fir Trade (plate #36) that has what appears to be a very similar affair. However, Kanta-ke in 1790 is not the same as the fur trade era, so that may well not directly apply.

I guess I better get me a "proper" button of some sort and perhaps even continue to use the "wrapped whang" approach.

I much appreciate your attention to this line of thought and the ideas you so well present. As a trained historian (BA degree) I well appreciate the many facets of these issues, but simply am not yet as well versed in this time period as I hope to be in the future.

Col Boone

Thanks Col.
Im just glad you are not angry at my non definative rambling reply...

I was thinking more about what you cuold use if you decide to change the antler...and I thought a nice piece of a rifle side plate would be neat...or even a portion of a serpent plate from a trade gun...I have seen the original serpents busted up for decorative purposes and unearthed in N/A burials, and think something along these lines would maybe earn lots of good comments and little if no controversy...besides it might just look pretty dang cool too?
Thanks again..
TCA

This message has been edited. Last edited by: T.Albert,

TC -How could one be angry about such a reply? Your answer properly mirrors the data we have.."rambling and not definative" - is that not what history often is?

Your notion of using some broken part of a rifle is most unique and quite interesting. I have no such parts here, but can easily get one. Heck, to take it to a limit, how about mashing a .50 cal ball flat, drilling a pair of holes and using that for the toggle?

I like the "pretty dang cool" aspect as well....we can be PC AND cool at the same time!

Thanks again, not only for your posts but for the wonderful information you have taken the time to share through your writings.

Col Boone

Col. Boone, I like your idea of the whang wrapped around a toggle. Matter of fact, I did that very thing myself in the last 6-8 months on a small belt bag used for holding wads and a few tools for my smoothie. I did use a pewter button however, not antler (this is a non-issue to me). IMHO, it looks just fine and works even better. I considered it to be the type of practical ingenuity a 18th or 19th century backwoodsman would use to solve a need.

First, let me say thanks to trg for his post: You are right, what I said , "prove that they weren't", is not the right way to go about anything regarding history, and historical facts. I appologize for that earlier post of mine.
I am passionate about buckinning, and try to do things as correct as possible. I do think it is carried too far sometimes (imho) and I tend to get "excited". Nevertheless, "prove that they weren't" is not the right attitude, and I appologize to everyone and Col Boone!
TC really said it well in his post...

sometimes....trying to share knowledge on this medium(cyberspace)is like teaching a pig to sing...if I offended anyone with my posting/sharing of knowledge, I'd suggest growing some thicker skin-I tend to be blunt and to the point-just as I am in person(though I have been known to go on&on&on in real life)-I read and re-read this thread with a focus on my postings-even had a couple of friends read'em-I really don't think I was out of line in any way(my friends said"yep, sounds like ya")...perhaps in the future I'll just keep my research/knowledge/etc to myself and share it with those who really want it...respectfully,Mitch

Just for the sake of furthering some discussion on the topic...when, if ever was the word "horn", commonly used to describe deer horns on the American frontier? And if it was used that way, how common and frequent was the usage?

I did find reference to early Kentucky long hunters entering rock shelters and finding by evidence of "horn buttons" scattered on the rock house's floor and an old iron furnace wall, that others had indeed been there before.

Was the word horn ever used interchangably with the word antler in 18th century descriptive writings of our frontier? If so, then perhaps a scholarly case could be made that documentation may exist forwarding the theory that horn, arguably meaning "antler" buttons did exist?

For instance...in Shefield, a quote about the button industry illustrates how words used to describe this very topic there in England can often be misleading..."Button making was another one of the Sheffield skills; and although always referred to as "horn" buttons, this description is a misnomer, for they were actually made out of animal hooves, a soft and pliable substance easily worked. The method of manufacture was similar to the haft pressing except that the hoof-filled dies were approximately 7" x 3" and they contained cut impressions of as many as a dozen buttons; therefore meaning that number could be turned out with the single operation."
Heres where I got the above quote...
http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/horn.html
and if accurate it illustrates what Im getting at with my "could horn mean antler in our 18th century coloquial vernacular on the frontier" question.

Just proposing a different way to examine the same question about using antler buttons...
TCA

This message has been edited. Last edited by: T.Albert,

quote:

perhaps in the future I'll just keep my research/knowledge/etc to myself and share it with those who really want it...respectfully,Mitch

Mitch, I sincerely hope you don't keep it to yourself and I hope you didn't think I was referring to you as the 3rd party.

Sean

Im with Sean here Mitch..and really entertained the hope that we could all collectively really give this antler button question a run for its money and maybe even come up with some credable theories and documentation not only to gelp Col. Boone with the threads initial question, but to really add to everyones knowledge and perhaps finally find the proof needed to document this one?
(how's that for a run on sentence?)
Chuck's bag image with what sure looks like an antler button is a great start and more than I personally could have cited before...
TCA

Yeah, Mitch, no need for you to feel like you were off base. You weren't! We're all big boys (& girls) around here. And yes, if somebody's offended by you giving your opinion, they DO need to grow a thicker hide.

I, like many of the others, appreciate your side of the story. Keep on...!

quote:

...perhaps in the future I'll just keep my research/knowledge/etc to myself and share it with those who really want it...respectfully,Mitch

Mitch,I think your research/knowledge is very important to these type of discussions. All you can do is present the information you have. It's up to the individual to do with it as he/she pleases whether they agree or not. I love to see what others have researched and documented. It all is good information. Again, it's up to the individual as to how far they wish to take it. In short,..keep the info coming and if someone is offended or disagees..well that is their issue. Keep it coming. Oh...and just for the record, I like TCs idea of a silver button, but I would have no problem w/ a slice of antler either. Best regards. Rockerhound

TC and the Lads - I really agree with TC on my question accidentally triggering what could be a very forward moving discussion. First point I get is that the subject of horn (antler) buttons (or used as a toggle as I did) were present in the period of early Kanta-ke exploration. The image of just such a pouch that was shared sure is suggestive, but as we have no further data (date, where collected) it seems inconclusive to me - though very suggestive.

I guess one question that preys on me is, "why does it have to be a widespread approach to be PC - how about individual expressions?" But, that clearly strays into the minefield of "informed conjecture" that we have discussed.

So, if this spurs someone to further research, please share your findings! I am sure we all would like to share in the discoveries.

Meanwhile, thanks for all the info, opinions and
input.

Col Boone

I often may use something that I have no documentation for, if someone asks about the item or practice I make certain to explain that the item or practice is one I feel may have bveen used/done but I cannot support it, this is where one must be cautious, we should not give the impression that things were used/done that we have no evidence of, it is only fair to spectators and newcommers to provide an honest picture of what ever we do.Many of us are not at the level that everythiomng must have three pieces of docums to validate it, the experimental arhceologist angle gives room for interpretation but should be presented as such.

Col. Boone, et al

My thoughts on the bone/antler button issue, for what they're worth, took more of a practical, rather than historical, turn. After all, wouldn't our hypothetical woodsman have to consider the practical aspects?

In my experience, the buttons which are so often sold at contemporary rendezvous, which are made by slicing cross-sections of antler like a banana, are impractical. The center marrow section (aka pith) is too soft, even on old antlers. After time, the stitching pulls through with any kind of stress, and the button is lost. The side-slice approach as depicted by GreyWolf makes much more sense, as the entire button is composed of the hard outer surface of the antler. An even simpler approach would be to cut off the tip (or tine) of the antler and whittle or file a notch around the circumference in the middle. This could then be tied to the bag in question and wrapped with a whang to be used as a true toggle.

Again, these are just my random personal observations on what could have been done, with no primary, secondary, or tertiary documentation.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Pilgrim,

Pilgrim: Indeed, points well taken. In this case the horn (antler) I had to work with is very old (came from a garage sale) and the pith of the horn is very hard, especially when you get out to near the tip. I chose that part for the very reason you note. However, I really like your notion of a "real toggle" made with the tip of the horn - I want to try that on a small belt bag to see how it works. My only issue there might be that it may be more likely to snag on some other whang than a round "button" shape. Only experience will prove this out.

Col Boone

Col Boone, I have used a horn toggle on a hunting bag of mine for over 30 years. I have never had a problem with it hanging up while hunting, or for that matter ever coming undone on its own. I have used horn for years(antler) for buttons. I sometimes protray a injun(I am part native american). I use the same horns, bags knives etc whatever persona I am protraying. Antlers and horn are in my opnion Pc, while it may be true that the native americans (injuns) used it more than the palefaces, to say that whites did not use them is ludricous.and is full of bull. yours arkansawwind aka chief Fullabull.

Chief Fullabull - Good to hear that. And, I agree entirely on PC. My thinking says, "tell me why a longhunter of 1780 or so would NOT have used antler buttons if he had no others?". We already know that Colonial Pioneers copied many indian ways, so why not this one?

Col Boone