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Factor |
Here's something I'd like to hear from the rest of you about. What's your favorite fur company to read about and research? My own favorite is the Rocky Mountain Fur Company mainly because of the colorful folks who owned it, ran it, or worked for it. I like to look into the notes of the Hudson's Bay Company too and they have the longest history and the best records of all. The RMFC is much more American, of course. So, share some thougts with me about those old companies. Shoot sharp, Mike
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Booshway |
I was always intrigued with the American Fur Company--a very early entrant into the trade, although its ruthless management may not have been something to admire. Astor became one of the world's richest men through that trade...One of the first books I read on it was Irving's Astoria.
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Factor |
Mike, Yes, the American Fur Company has some interesting things in their background. And, they were successful while the RMFC was not. On top of that, McKenzie was kind enough to have a still at Fort Union. That brought in some good trading, for sure. Shoot sharp, Mike
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Factor |
My favorite would be the Rocky Mtn. Fur Company. Not so much as a business history but as a study of the characters. Bridger and Jedediah Smith were two of my earliest favorites.
Sparks |
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Booshway |
There is a distinct difference in methodology between the American-based companies and the British or Canadian ones. The Americans, because of their clientele, found themselves hiring trappers/hunters as well as traders, whereas the Canadian/British ones contracted with native trappers and hunters for the furs.
In addition to the NW Co. and HBC there were attempts at encorporating out of Mackinac Island. I tend to favor those smaller companies, which weren't economically successful because of the heavy competition. Dick "Est Deus in Nobis" |
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Factor |
Dick, What you said about the British/Canadian doin's is quite true. The Hudson's Bay Company, for the most part, were traders. At the same time, the Americans went in to trap the beaver out of Indian lands. That was why the Blackfeet were generally at war with the Americans but traded freely with the Hudson's Bay folks. And, the Hudson's Bay Co. is where the Blackfeet got guns, like the Northwest Guns, to fight the Americans. Politics played a big role. Shoot sharp, Mike
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Free Trapper |
The Rocky Mountain Fur Company will always be the top one in my heart. Just because as others ave said the charecters associated with the name.
But in any discussion of the Fur companies the old Lisa outfit the Missouri Fur Co can't be ignored if for no other reason than all that we're first with them then later becoming major names in the fur trade. ie; Henry , Pilcher Mckenzie and many others. Woodman |
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Booshway |
The American Fur Co. or do you mean the Russian American Fur Co.? That last is probably my favorite but I like to read about them all.
When one studies the the Northwest trade guns, they default to both the Northwest Fur Co. and the Hudson Bay Co. One of you mentioned above that the Hudson Bay Co was mostly traders. That is true in a sence but keep in mind, they traded for both furs and pemmican. The furs were sold in England and the pemmican was the fuel that kept the employees (voyajuors) living. On the other hand, the Yankee fur traders traded directly with the trappers and the trappers trapped the furs. This wasn't exactly what the indigiounous people liked. This is one of the reasons the Canadian (fur traders) had a better relationship with their indigionous people than the Yankees. Another problem was that many of the trappers, the first embasidores to our indigionous people were a majoity of scounrals, to coin Don Berry's book title. The Russian American Fur Co. had more problems to have to deal with than any other fur co. Getting supplies across Russia, the Bearing Sea, the North Pacific, and then deal with the Tlinget Indians, makes crossing the Atlantic and the North American Continent a cake walk. Our trappers were a magority of scoundrals, the Promyshlennik (Russian trappers and hunters) were not much more than serfs and jail birds looking for a second chance. They didn't oun land so what were their prospects in Russia? Poor at best, if not doomed to a jail cell. They didn't do as much trapping or hunting as our mountain men did for two reasons. One, they (the company) paid the Aleuts (a pittence over a slaves wage) to hunt the sea animals, and second, if they (the Russians or Aleuts) went into the woods, the Tlingets would kill them. Much like our mountain men in Crow country. Load fast and aim slow. |
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Free Trapper |
White finger,
In the last line of your post I would have to disagree with ya I think you meant Blackfoot rather than Crow. With the Crow you had to worry more about them stealing your horses rather than killing ya. Woodman |
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Booshway |
woodman; I'm the worlds worst speller. I misspelled Tlingit by using an e instead of an i. Then as you pointed out, I mispelled Backfoot by spelling it CROW.
 My turn to eat crow. By the way, much like the Hudson Bay Co. and the Northwest Co., the Russian monopoly was called the Russian American Co. It didn't have the word "fur" in it. Load fast and aim slow. |
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Booshway |
sorta hard doin's t' call th' rmfc "unsuccessful"; they made small fortunes fer th' earliest lads. even prayin' 'diah smith got out with a purty good stake; he jest lost it ('n his h'ar) t' some comanches when he went t' tryin' anuther trade. ain't none uv 'em around now--do thet make 'em all "unsuccessful"? far as i c'n see, most o' them free trappers made 'n lost sev'ral fortunes. davy jackson becum a banker off'n his start. but th' richest uv 'em all wuz them as lived honorable 'n free an' prideful jist th' way they wanted to, an' din't eat no whatnot offa no flatlander, an ef they died 'thout no other fortune, they knowed they'd lived a fair lick. i'd take that to th' bank! mind yer topknots! windy
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Booshway |
Yes, that's right. Politics on all sides, native included. And, though guns weren't by any means a large part of trade inventories, dollar-wise, everyone sold guns to their customers; liquor also was sometimes banned (wink, wink) as a trade item, but no one could do business without it. I think it was Zebulon Pike or maybe Wm. H. Harrison (my memory's pretty good!) who warned the NDNs away from unscrupulous traders who sold them liquor, then sent them off with a drink "to ease their throats". That's not an exact quote, but something like it. The British mostly used "high wine" which was a kind of grape-based grain alcohol watered down to suit the market. Dick "Est Deus in Nobis" |
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Booshway |
Not totally - in the 1820-30's HBC after taking over from the NWC ran trapping brigades in the far west. From their posts in Washington, No Idaho, and Western Montana, brigades headed south (as far as the Gulf of California) and east (as far as western Wyoming - the Snake River Brigade). In the mid-1820's they butted heads several times with various American groups, mostly in southern Idaho and northern Utah. They not only lost men, but furs as well to the Americans. Selling guns to Bugs Boys back fired after a while - in the late 1820's they wound up having to close some posts in Western Montana and were forced to travel farther north though Canada in order to pass around the Blackfeet tribes who had turned belligerent even to them. My favorite - I like the whole history from Colter in 1806 to the closing of Ft Union in 1867, but I have special place in my heart for the SW and the Central Rockies where the big companies never got a foot hold, and the independent trapper was king (Bridger, Smith, Fitzpatrick, and other famed northern trappers are often thought of as free trappers, but their real fame came as brigade leaders for various companies.) A point regarding the AFCo: it was really the Choteau's and their companies under various names who ran the northern fur trade. Astor tried in 1818 to set up an independent company headquartered in St Louis, but shortly he bowed to the inevitable and contracted with the Choteau's to run things as the Upper Missouri Department and the Western Department. But no matter who ran it, it was often simply known as The Company, even after Astor sold off his interest in it in the 1830's. aka Chuck Burrows |
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Booshway |
aka Chuck Burrows |
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Factor |
That's right. One of their noted brigade leaders was Ogden. The HBC used the brigades to try wiping out the beaver in those areas to get the pelts before the Americans could get them. Also, they had their own trappers doing the work with the idea of stripping the land of beaver. Indians often left some beaver for "seed" and the HBC didn't want that. Shoot sharp, Mike |
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Free Trapper |
A lot don't realize that as early as 1826 Antoine Rouibidoux had his post established about four miles west of the confluence of the Gunnison and Uncompahgre rivers (were Delta ,Colorado is today).
Along the Front Range of Colorado was the settlement of El Puebloe wich was founded in 1832 by former trappers most notably was Jim Beckwith.Mattew Kinkade at this point in time had brought milk cows up from Taos. He was going out in the early spring when the Bison were calfing and capturing bison calfes taking them back to El Puebloe raising them.Then he would take them back to Saint Lous and sell them for zoo's. The El Puebloe residents we're also the center of the illegal trade for alcohol, importing from Taos and moving it North to the central plains of Wyoming. Woodman |
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Booshway |
Anyone care to venture an estimate of how many fur companies were operating in the West between 1800-1840? There were a lot more than two. I can think of the Missouri Fur Company, Wyeth's outfit, Bonneville, Gantt and Blackwell, Bent and St. Vrain, Lupton, Roubideau, and I think that just scratches the surface.
Sean |
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Booshway |
Not totally - in the 1820-30's HBC after taking over from the NWC ran trapping brigades in the far west. From their posts in Washington, No Idaho, and Western Montana, brigades headed south (as far as the Gulf of California) and east (as far as western Wyoming - the Snake River Brigade). In the mid-1820's they butted heads several times with various American groups, mostly in southern Idaho and northern Utah. They not only lost men, but furs as well to the Americans. Eventually Governor Simpson ordered that they create a "fur desert" between the Rockies and the Pacific NW in order to keep the Americans from venturing farther west - in the long run he was not successful....... QUOTE] You're correct, of course. I guess it was a combination of the growing ferocity of the competition south of the Canadian line, and the nature of the clientele, who appararently were less willing to do the trapping work themselves. Earlier, however, and further east and north, the British system worked (and still works) just fine for the most part. (Nothing's perfect or smooth...) My contention is that, while the British weren't particularly altruistic about it at the corporate and government level, they tended to favor keeping native land in native hands (for the purposes of exploitation rather than national expansion) as opposed to the American system, which whether it was run that way on purpose or not was in fact a precurser to settlement and the disenfranchisement of the natives. That disenfranchisement happened on both sides of the border eventually, of course, for much the same reasons in the end. Dick "Est Deus in Nobis" |
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Booshway |
I'm particularly fond of the Rocky Mountain Fur Company. Not only are there many familiar and famous names associated with it, but let's not forget that General Ashley invented the rendezvous system to extend the fur trade beyond the constraints of the fixed trading posts.
Regarding the HBC: another one of their predatory practices was to move into areas already being served by independent traders, and sell goods at or below cost. The independents couldn't compete and would either quit or went bankrupt, at which point the HBC would raise their prices back up to "mountain price" One such independent trader allegedly specified in his last will and testament that he wanted to be buried on a hill overlooking the HBC trading post that ran him out of business, so that he could "piss on the HBC for all eternity." "Any day you wake up on the right side of the dirt is a good day" |
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Graybeard |
Mike: The HBC tried to trap all the fur not just "to keep the Americans from getting it" although that was undoubtably part of it, but it was a stated goal, sited in the history of the HBC, commisioned by the HBC, by John McLaughlin, factor at Fort Vancouver, to create a "fur desert" to keep the Americans out of the Oregon Country and control westward expansion. By the way, it didn't work.
To answer the original question, RMFC due to the people in it and HBC 'cause I live approx 2 mi from the site of the original Fort Boise. |
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