HEY SINCE I LIVE UP IN THE LAND THAT THE RUSSIANS FORMALY HELD I AM INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT WHAT RIFELS / MUSKETS THEY USED ETC. BUT AM HAVEING SOME DIFFACULTY IN FINDING GOOD INFO ON THE MATTER IF BY CHANCE ANY OF YOU HAVE ANY INFO OR IDEA`S WOULD REALLY LIKE TO HEAR IT.

Hi there, John B. Were you named after that sloop, the John B? It sailed in the Caribean in the song but maybe it made trips to the far north also.

I was born and raised in Wrangell and it was also part of Russian America. The Hudson Bay Co. leased it for some years and then the United States bought it.

I've also asked myself the same question and like yourself, have come up with an empty bag. I was in Ketchikan last June and bought the book; Russians in Alaska, 1732-1867, by Lydea T. Black. It is a very indepth history of the russian period. There isn't anything on the weapons used by the Russians.

My Grandpa had a 3" Russian cannon that came from the fort the Russian's built in Wrangell. The family donated it to the Wrangell Museum when my uncle, the last surviving son of my grandpa passed away in 2004. It was a naval gun and would have been mounted on a naval or ships style carrage.

Lets keep in contact so if we ever get the info you are looking for, we can share it.

I have my grandpa's Northwest trade gun but it was made in 1878, 20 gauge and a caplock.

There ar two NW trade guns in the Wrangell Museum and I wrote a report for them documenting dates, type, gauge and any other info I could get. The lst tie I was in Wrangell, the museum was under new management so I asked about the trade guns. They new nothing about them. They didn't appreaciate the fact when I told them that I had provided a report on the guns with everything about them tross refferenced to my cources.

I'm sure glad I kept a copy of that report and the photos because though they don't know what they have, I do.

Load fast and aim slow.

HI white finger, yeah it is hard trying to find anything on russian gun`s but i do remimber something about the russians did get a large amount of guns from the belgiumes i think but they were military contract could be some of those made it over the bering straight`s.
am gonna try and see if i can get some help from the local librair`n she`s a russian imigrant. still has alot of family in russia might be i can get someplace their.
i`ll be glade to let you know about anything i come up with.

John Sutter, the builder of Sutter's Fort in Sacramento California, bought the Russian fort at Fort Ross and moved most of it to Sacramento. Among the military equipment he purchased, were a number of French Charleville muskets. Apparently, the Russians acquired them from the French as Napoleon's army was retreating from Moscow.

The museum in Sitka had some info on the trade guns and Russian weapontry 40 years ago. A Russian tradegun barrel was found near Atell Creek back about 20 years ago at Slana (where I live). The barrel was 42 inches long, octogon to round tapered and about 28 gauge. There were proof and manufactor marks on the bottom flat as well as the left hand flat opposite of the touch hole. I took rubbingsof the marks but only one was really descernable, it was a double eagle from the Hapsburg, Austria area.

The story of how the trade gun got to where it was found is interesting. It seems that two Russian traders had traveled up the Copper River to Mentasta Village, trading along the way. The trading at Mentasta was so-so as the folks there felt that they were not getting a fair trade.

The two Russian traders left the village and headed back toward the Copper River, stopping at the summer fish camp of Slana at the confluence of the Slana River and the Copper River. The traders set up camp on Atell Creek and intended to leave the next day or so. A group of men from Mentasta Village followed the traders to Atell Creek and were going to confront the traders about the poor quality of their goods. On the trail down to Atell Creek, it was decided to just murder the Russians and take their remaining goods back to Mentasta. That night the men from the village attacked the camp, killing both Russians. One of the Russians supposedly managed to run a short distance trying to get across Atell Creek while carrying a gun that he had fired. In the ensuing fight the Russian was killed in the creek and the gun lost in the water. This occured in 1842 or possibly 1848, as no accurate record of the incident is recorded.

The gun barrel was found in the mud of Atell Creek during a bridge rennovation in 1990.

Keep an eye to the ridgeline......'n' a good grip on yor gun!

Regards,

xfox

jack london's "the story of no-face" is a purty good yarn 'bout them doin's.
mind yer topknots! windy

call Kieth bayha in sutten alaska (north of palmer) or the asmla which he runs he has been reserching muzzleloading in alaska for the last few year for a book he is writing he should be able to point you in the right direction

Gents, I'll show a few photos of a Russian trade rifle I used to own. The first is the lock and it's dated 1804. Dr. Fox who visits this site says the name of the town that's also engraved on the lock is where they still make AK-47s. The first photo is the lock. Flint convertyed to percussion. Bookie

Lock_Front.jpg (81 KB, 80 downloads) lock

This second photo shows a knot hole in the stock, near the wrist. The hole goes completely through the stock.

Knot_Hole.jpg (93 KB, 72 downloads) Hole

The barrel has been rifled.

Bore.jpg (50 KB, 66 downloads) Bore

The grip rail was nailed in place.

Grip_Rail_Nails.jpg (64 KB, 68 downloads) Grip rail

Here is the lock's guts.

Lock_Guts.jpg (31 KB, 54 downloads) Guts

The lock's engraving.

Lock_Markings.jpg (94 KB, 56 downloads) Markings

The front site was staked in place. Rather non-adjustable.

F._Site-Side.jpg (24 KB, 61 downloads) Frt. Site

The last for tonight is the overall view from the right side. I have a few more photos of the gun that I can share with you. All in all, it's in rather sorry state, but still an interesting piece of history. Cheers, Bookie

Right_Side.jpg (97 KB, 77 downloads) Right side

HEY bookie thanks alot for all the photo`s they are really interesting and helpfull.
and thanks to the rest of you guy`s too ! this group just has gotta be the best on the internet
i learn more on here than from most other site`s.

Great pictures and what a unique firearm.

I've always been under the impression that military firearms were the mainstay of the Russians in Alaska. This is an assumption and certainly can't be documented.

One reason I've formed this opinion is because the expeditions (ventures) were financed by stockholders and other partial stake holders who rather than pay high prices for firearms, purchased what they could, and those at a low price. This translates into military firearms.

Keep in mind that the Russians only hunted the animals they were going to eat. The fur bearing animals were nearly all trapped. The Alutes did most of that trapping too. So, from that stand-point, firearms were more for protection from the natives than for hunting.

The Russians did darn little hunting in Southeastern Alaska becasue if and when they got far from their settelments, the Tlinget's killed them.

The Russians also had to patrol the whole area of Southeast Alaska looking for poachers, Boston men and British illegaly trading with the natives. The poachers were great at trading firearms and that was the last thing the Russians wanted in the hands of the natives.

They also didn't want foreigners trading for furs and taking them to China for trade at high profits.

Like I say, I can't substanciate this opinion but I feel more military firearms were used than any others.

The Russian's didn't want the common man, the equivialnt of the mountain man in our west, their Promyshlennik to have excellent and powerfull firearms. Keep in mind, our mountain men outfitted himself and in most cases, got the best firearms he could afford. The Russian expeditions were outfitted by stock holders and share-holders. Prices were prohibitive in Okhots or Kamchatka (on the Russian east coast). On the other hand, prices were low around Moscow but everything had to be transported overland at an equally exorbant cost.

Fine rifle's, the promyshlenniki couldn't afored them. They were next to indentured, they signed on to the expedition for a portion of the profits. In the later years, they signed on to work in Alaska for X amount of years in which they hoped to make it big enough to go back to Mother Russia and live a better life than they could if they stayed in Russia. Many were the dreggs of Russian society just trying to dodge the jail.

Many of these people ended up marrying native woman, having children, and staying in Alaska. That isn't what the Russian gov. planned and they were to only stay X years. Well you know people, once they had a wife and children, plans changed. Let's face it, though it wasn't the greatest life, in many cases they were better off with their new family in Alaska than they would be back in Russia.

What I'm driving at is that those purchasing and supplying the firearms wouldn't go to great lengths to get the best sporting arms. Military surplus would do just fine.

Just an opinion I've formed while reading about the Russian's in Alaska.

Now I will present a question. Do you think Northwest trade guns imported by the British or those dastardly Boston men were well sough after by those who could afford one? I'm not talking about the promyshlennik, I'm talking about the upper echelon.

Load fast and aim slow.

Spelling was never one of my top subjects but there are some words an Alaskan (even if that is "former") just shouldn't misspell.

I should probably write Aleut 100 times.

Load fast and aim slow.

I didn't mean to be the final word on this thread.

If any of you know anything about the Russian military firarms of 1790 though 1867, let us know. In my opinion, it would be these that the Russian's used in Alaska.

Load fast and aim slow.

I attended the Museum of the Fur Trade's Feast of the Hunter's Moon this weekend. One of the displays in the museum covered the Fur Trade in Alaska and these Russian guns were on display. Unfortunatly the picture of the gun descriptions didn't come out.

Medicine Soldier

Russian_trade_guns.JPG (36 KB, 27 downloads) Russian Guns